4Motion - high price

[PhilR]

What are people ordering now being told about possible import duties when the transition agreement ends? I'm not asking for thoughts as to whether we'll get a duty free trade deal, but if we don't and say 10% is applied, will vw suck them up (for existing orders as you have an agreed price), or do you have the right to walk away?

I’m not “listening” to that! Don’t throw a spanner in the works, we’ve almost decided what we want

 

[Legin]

Normal drill is you get offered it at the deal price or deposit back if you want. Your not obligated to pay the higher cost but equally they are not obliged to sell it to you for the deal price but normally do. I doubt they would swallow 10%. although 3% price increase is routinely absorbed.
Who knows really as uncharted territory

 

[SusiBus]

Normal drill is you get offered it at the deal price or deposit back if you want. Your not obligated to pay the higher cost but equally they are not obliged to sell it to you for the deal price but normally do. I doubt they would swallow 10%. although 3% price increase is routinely absorbed.
Who knows really as uncharted territory

Looking at a VW New Vehicle Order form it says. Make what you will of that!

 

[Perfectos]

We collected our T6.1 in July and we given a 4-year warranty as well. However when I inquired about upgrading to a 5-year warranty I was told I would need to pay the "usual" 2-year extension of £329. I have not yet extended the warranty to 5 years but plan to shortly. Which dealer stated it is just £44 for the one extra year?

Hi Subthree, don’t leave the extended factory warranty too long I think you only have three months from first registration!
Make sure you get the paperwork from the dealer, VW have a habit of not being able to find a record of extended warranty

 

[GrannyJen]

even my wife has said we should get the 199 and 4WD. So if she says that......what am I supposed to do
Certainly don’t want to have any regrets.

So having read all the man-maths you've gone for the woman-wisdom. Very wise!

Congratulations.

 

[SheffieldSteel]

The official figures for the 199 are, I think: 30.1 to 33.2 mpg for 2WD, 28.8 to 31.4 mpg for 4-Motion. That would imply around a 1.5 mpg (5%) 'penalty' for 4-Mo. On that basis, unless daily driver/high mileages, pretty insignificant as a factor in overall owning/running costs. I do about £7k/year in our van so 4-Mo would only cost maybe £50 a year more in fuel.

(Unless VW's claimed figures don't actually relate to real road conditions, of course... )

I have a 204BHP 4Motion and it never fails to give me 40 mpg, unless Im towing a 1.5T boat and then it goes down to about 20 mpg. For me personally, I would always choose 4motion now. This is my 3rd Cali, the first two where 2 wheel drive and I never had an issue for what I used them for. i just never towed a boat with them.

 

[PhilR]

If you've seen my other thread about being disappointed in the 6.1, you'll probably wonder why I'm asking this question, but we've spent days discussing it and we still want to go for a Cali. If the finance deal is suitable, we'll probably go for the 4MO. My question....

I realise that speccing Diff Lock is definitely worth doing, but if I do that, is Hill Descent Control worth speccing also? I'm guessing it's never going to be used but if it's costing around £4k for the 4MO + Diff Lock, £120 doesn't seem much to complete the 4WD package? Any thoughts.....

 

[WelshGas]

If you've seen my other thread about being disappointed in the 6.1, you'll probably wonder why I'm asking this question, but we've spent days discussing it and we still want to go for a Cali. If the finance deal is suitable, we'll probably go for the 4MO. My question....

I realise that speccing Diff Lock is definitely worth doing, but if I do that, is Hill Descent Control worth speccing also? I'm guessing it's never going to be used but if it's costing around £4k for the 4MO + Diff Lock, £120 doesn't seem much to complete the 4WD package? Any thoughts.....

I don't have either and have never felt the need for either, but then I got it for the all year round driving ability. Personally for serious off roading I would use a Defender, as in years gone by.
Some have used their's to venture well off the beaten track and if you are one of those then go for it.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Never driven a Cali with one, but in general folks in the off-roading world say the 4WD is to get you into trouble, and diff locks to get you out of trouble.

On that basis if you're going for both those, yes an extra £120 for the hill descent control seems reasonable (given that on a diesel you only get limited engine braking).

 

[California4x4]

If you've seen my other thread about being disappointed in the 6.1, you'll probably wonder why I'm asking this question, but we've spent days discussing it and we still want to go for a Cali. If the finance deal is suitable, we'll probably go for the 4MO. My question....

I realise that speccing Diff Lock is definitely worth doing, but if I do that, is Hill Descent Control worth speccing also? I'm guessing it's never going to be used but if it's costing around £4k for the 4MO + Diff Lock, £120 doesn't seem much to complete the 4WD package? Any thoughts.....

I was living in Norway when I specified my California and like to venture off the beaten trail as often as I can. I don’t consider it an off-road vehicle but it has coped admirably with some challenges. On one occasion in a previous van, with FWD it drove up a steep hill with good winter tyres but on the way back down lost all traction. Fortunately there were no vehicles on the road at the bottom of the hill for it went straight across the two lanes and bounced off the kerb on the other side. For these reasons I specified both the diff-lock and the hill descent control. I have used the diff lock only a handful of times per year when stuck in snow or very soft ground. The hill descent control I have only used a few times. If it was a choice between the two, I’d recommend the diff-lock, however for the cost, I think the hill descent seems good value compared to many other options.

 

[Niborn]

Just trying to spec up our ideal first ever campervan. I thought I’d go for 4WD but at £3,246 + £750 for diff lock (to get the best out of it) + £120 Hill descent adds up to a whopping £4116
As much as I think it would be useful, even then I’d really need winter tyres anyway at further cost. Then there’s the additional fuel costs. It’s not really selling itself to me at this stage! I’ve read all the threads about it and it seems that those that have it love it, and those that don’t are probably thinking like I am!
so is it worth £4116?

I do think its worth it. I might not of gone for the diff lock as ive never had to use it, but I believe the 4wd has improved the safety, i feel it connecting sometimes and on one occasion gling around a corner with unexpected gravel the control was fantastic, I feel sure without the 4wd I woukd have lost the tail and hit the side wall as it slid away from me. Another point is it probably isnt all spent and lost, the residual value is still there if you sell it.
I also have hill descent, ive used it once on an icy slope, very good but a bit spooky, for the price why not.
Good luck..

 

[Hamish S]

I have had numerous 4wd SUV's/cars over the years as I was doing 30k miles per year and wanted to ensure that I got home in winter as well as summer. When I got the Ocean I decided that, as it's my only vehicle, I would go for the 4wd again hoping that it would help in the winter and also getting out of wet grassy sites/pitched. As most of my driving was using main roads, including trying to get out of Sheffield in the snow (oh the hills!), I never had the need for a diff lock. I have had hill decent but only ever used it when messing about/ trying it out. In the snow around Yorkshire and the like I always felt more comfortable having full control myself but I think that was a personal choice. My view is unless you want to do some serious off-roading or go for winter ski trips then both would be nice to have, if affordable, but not necessary.

 

[Velma's Dad]

I have hill descent control on one of our cars (an Audi which is AWD with a DSG box) and it's certainly a nice to have for general driving in snow. However on a steep/difficult descent - eg the un-gritted hill we live on, on the odd days when it gets really icy - I find the hill descent gizmo doesn't maintain a low enough speed to really creep down safely, even when put into manual first.

If I had cause to use it more I guess I might develop more confidence in it. (Although in the end, on a slope when there's very low grip eg on packed snow, no electronics, 4WD, diff locks or whatever can defeat gravity.)

Nice to have, anyway, and no doubt more so the further north you live.

 

[PhilR]

As can be seen from my signature, we decided to go for the 4MO in the end. Thanks for all of the advice and opinions on here
Diff Lock + Hill Descent were also ticked. Oh well, it's only money

 

[Roger Boeken]

Not quit correct. The split is 40 - 60 front to rear on the Transporter and varies from that point depending on traction requirements.

4MOTION All-Wheel-Drive Technology | VW Vans

Explore the Volkswagen’s 4MOTION technology, designed to maintain traction while off-road with improved road holding and safety in poor surface conditions

www.volkswagen-vans.co.uk

I am getting confused. We have in california 4MOTION with either torsen differential or haldex clutch but not both I assume ? with TORSEN you have 40:60 front rear power distribution , but with HALDEX you have 90:10 front rear power distribution on normal road conditions. Front tires wear out faster than rear tires on my california's 4M (T6 and T6.1 driver since 2016).
@WelshGas : the web page describes the 4motion of the amarok, but this should not be extrapolated to all vehicles with 4motion I believe.

There seem to be 2 terms describing 4motion : simple 4 motion AWD or 4motion 4WD . I think our friends from Volkswagen New Zealand did the best homework (3th URL):
This is what we read on the internet:
1. https://www.volkswagen-vans.co.uk/en/technology/4motion.html
40:60 front rear power distribution/torsen differential
Permanent 4MOTION
All-wheel drive is engaged whether you’re on or off-road. In normal circumstances, the Torsen differential distributes power 40:60 between the front and rear wheels, but when off-road, the system automatically distributes power to the wheels with the most grip. When combined with other systems such as Hill Start and Hill Descent Control, you’ll find your vehicle virtually unstoppable.
Permanent 4MOTION all-wheel drive system is available as standard on Amarok and also available as an option on selected Caddy, Transporter, Crafter, California and Grand California models.

2. https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/technology/transmissions-and-drivetrains/4motion.html

90:10 front rear power ditribution /haldex clutch

At the heart of the four-wheel drive system is an inter-axle differential -the design varies depending on the particular system. The differential's job is to share power between the front and rear axle, sending it where it's most needed. If the system senses a loss of traction - caused, for instance, by the wheels on one axle spinning on a slippery surface - it will split the wheels' turning power as needed - almost instantly - to correct the problem.

At the same time, the smaller differences in rotational speed, that happen when cornering or manoeuvring, have to be balanced to stop torsional stresses in the drive train. And the differential must be able to work with the car's other active safety systems such as Anti-lock Braking System (ABS) and the electronic stability programme (ESP). In order to meet all these different demands, we offer our four-wheel drive system in three differential variants. They are called:

• Haldex clutch (cali)
• Torsen differential (amarok, touareg)
• Lockable centre differential ( touareg)

“The general principle of the Haldex clutch is to always send the driving forces to the axle with the better traction. In this way, 4MOTION is able to respond swiftly and optimally to any driving situation. However, you still keep the feel of a front-wheel drive car most of the time. In normal driving conditions, 90 per cent of the engine's power is sent to the front wheels, with 10 per cent going to the rear. This results in improved fuel efficiency, compared with permanent four-wheel drive”

3. 4MOTION tested on ice | Volkswagen NZVolkswagen New Zealandhttps://www.volkswagen.co.nz › v...
How does 4MOTION work?
The smaller differences in rotational speed, that happen when cornering or manoeuvring, have to be balanced to stop torsional stresses in the drivetrain. And the differential must be able to work with the car’s other active safety systems such as Anti-lock Braking System (ABS) and the Electronic Stability Programme (ESP). In order to meet all these different demands, we offer our all-wheel drive system in two different variants, the Haldex Type and Torsen Differential.

Haldex Type: The current Haldex Type permanent 4MOTION is in its fifth generation and uses an electronically controlled multiplate clutch. Its special feature is that the distribution of traction to all four wheels is already active before slip occurs. This almost entirely eliminates any loss of traction. The all-wheel drive system normally directs the drive torque to the front axle. If necessary, the rear wheels are engaged in a fraction of a second, dealing swiftly with potentially dangerous or difficult driving conditions.

Torsen (TORque-SENsing) Differential: The Touareg and Amarok are equipped with permanently engaged four-wheel drive. On these models, the Torsen mechanical self-locking centre differential enables asymmetric dynamic torque distribution between the front and rear axles. It responds to varying rotational forces between the front and rear axle, sending torque between them as needed.

 

[andyinluton]

I am getting confused. We have in california 4MOTION with either torsen differential or haldex clutch but not both I assume ? with TORSEN you have 40:60 front rear power distribution , but with HALDEX you have 90:10 front rear power distribution on normal road conditions. Front tires wear out faster than rear tires on my california's 4M (T6 and T6.1 driver since 2016).
@WelshGas : the web page describes the 4motion of the amarok, but this should not be extrapolated to all vehicles with 4motion I believe.

You certainly are getting confused!

The 60/40 split is correct for a Cali & that information comes from the VWCV web site & specificaly mentions the Cali & GC

The 90/10 split & the webpage you've referenced are on the VW car site.

Also note that if something says that the same system is used as the touarag that different generations of that vehicle have had different systems.

 

[Velma's Dad]

I am getting confused. We have in california 4MOTION with either torsen differential or haldex clutch but not both I assume ? with TORSEN you have 40:60 front rear power distribution , but with HALDEX you have 90:10 front rear power distribution on normal road conditions. Front tires wear out faster than rear tires on my california's 4M (T6 and T6.1 driver since 2016).
@WelshGas : the web page describes the 4motion of the amarok, but this should not be extrapolated to all vehicles with 4motion I believe.

...

As I understand it, "4Motion" is just VW badging for all its 4WD/AWD systems. They use Haldex (a multi-plate system) on some models, and Torsen (a gear-based, ATB type system) on others.

[EDIT] I should have added of course that the T5/T6 vans including the Cali use the Haldex system.

 

[Tarquers]

Beware the VW marketing machine. They tell at least one lie in the links. The Haldex is a type of rear differential that is an unengaged clutch pack for the majority of the time. Everything spins at the same speed and the clutch engages when needed ie when slip is detected.

From a traction perspective it adds up to 50% torque to the rear axle maximum but if a wheel is off the ground then all bets are off without a diff lock. It’s definitely better than FWD in low traction scenarios but it isn’t 4WD by any measure.

 

[Corradobrit]

a wheel is off the ground

An unlikely scenario for the majority of Cali owners

 

[Tarquers]

An unlikely scenario for the majority of Cali owners

True, just makes the point about what it is (glorified FWD) and what it isn’t.

 

[lohr500]

Is the traction control/braking system smart enough on the 4Motion to apply the brake on a spinning wheel to help traction in the scenario when one wheel is off the ground?

 

[Tarquers]

Is the traction control/braking system smart enough on the 4Motion to apply the brake on a spinning wheel to help traction in the scenario when one wheel is off the ground?

This video will help explain, short answer is no.

 

[lohr500]

Really helpful link. Thanks @Tarquers
I am glad I ordered the rear diff lock on our Cali which is due to arrive next year.

It is a pity VW didn't incorporate individual wheel braking into the traction control system.

 

[andyinluton]

Is the traction control/braking system smart enough on the 4Motion to apply the brake on a spinning wheel to help traction in the scenario when one wheel is off the ground?

Applying the handbrake gently has a similar effect to the diff lock, by slowing down a spinning wheel it sends drive to the one that isn't spinning.

 

[Corradobrit]

True, just makes the point about what it is (glorified FWD) and what it isn’t.

No intention of camping in the Kalahari so perfectly meets my needs.