Norway to 'completely ban petrol powered cars by 2025'

[clarinetbcn]

It’s complex and there is not a one size fits all solution. For example, I live in a house that was built in 1750. It is a listed building and I am therefore prohibited from installing double glazing, solar panels, etc, etc. At the same time if I ever sell I am required to provide an ‘energy report’ to a prospective buyer! So the one hand the government wants me to be more energy efficient and on the other stops me doing it.

My flat was built in 1880 is historically protected, but saner heads are in charge. There has to be an intelligent judgement about what modern improvements are allowed on historical buildings. Otherwise my flat would not have electricity and an elevator, let alone an indoor bathroom, none of which were part of the original flat.

 

[steve_b]

Not really. On the electricity side you need to take into account conversion losses, distribution losses and charging losses. Charging losses will increase as chargers get more powerful, as they must do to reduce charging times. A fast charge is inefficient as a lot of heat is produced.

Interested to see some figures, though for comparison.

UK distribution losses are sub 8% per year, typically closer to 6%

What is conversion loss - the efficiency of the AC -> DC charger? I genuinely don't what this is - I know that low wattage devices the loss is very very small say sub 2% but don't know if this scales to EV level. If the loss is great, it has to be given off as heat and of so I would expect the chargers to have massive hot air blowers attached

Charging loss again not sure - and the percentage of fast charge : normal charge I suspect is very low at an overall level - the majority charge overnight or at work as opposed to at a super-quick stall. Like to see figures for both as well as the ratio of fast:slow charging.

I don't have the numbers but it would have to be horribly horribly inefficient and kick out an amount of waste heat that would be noticeable from a long distance to get close to petrol/diesel levels of (in)efficiency. To be as inefficient, you would have to kick out the same amount of heat that a combustion engine produces when burning an entire tank of fuel over several hundred miles - at the charging station - over a short period of time.

I might be wrong but I can't see that is happening

 

[Amarillo]

Flats definitely dont have gardens.

I own five flats - all in Inner London and all have gardens. Two have private gardens (one of which has two private gardens) and three have shared gardens.

 

[Lightning]

No, my power company generates exclusively with wind and solar, no offsets. Wind is currently the largest source for electric power in Spain.

It looks like the UK is heading in the same direction.

Boris Johnson to unveil plan to power all UK homes with wind by 2030

PM vows to make Britain world leader in low-cost clean power with ‘Build Back Greener’ drive

www.theguardian.com

 

[Wondering Star]

One rotation of a large wind turbine blade (off shore Aberdeen) can produce enough energy to power the average house for a day.

 

[camperhov]

The UK needs a plan as there isn't enough generating capacity for current demand. Add the electrification of the GWR line and HS2...

But if we all had an electric car we could charge over night that would help even demand, but charger and battery losses (tesla forums suggest as much as 20%) on top of distribution losses could mean 25% is gone before you hit the accelerator...

And then theres the issue with the lithium batteries no one knows how to recycle yet...

I know deisel aint the way to go either but i take with a pinch of salt the claims governments try to meet to keep them in power for anothe 4 years, and car manufacturers, as they dont address the battery problem in 10 to 25 years time...

 

[Lightning]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/912023/DUKES_2020_MASTER.pdf

 

[camperhov]

View attachment 67426

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/912023/DUKES_2020_MASTER.pdf

Yikes, so 55% lost between generation and use, with 20% charger/battery loss on top of that? Those are miserable stats...

 

[Lightning]

No. But if you are on a means tested benefit you can get one for free.

Additionally it is currently illegal in England and Wales to let a property with an EPC rating below E. The government proposes to raise this to C at some point in the nit too distant future, so the landlords of properties rated below this will be obliged to introduce potentially expensive energy efficiency measures at some point.

 

[Louis II]

Simple maths i know but if transport is 5.5 with around 200k out of 40m cars or 0.5% being ev's then when they are all ev's does the 5.5 not move towards 1,100? or put another way more than all the other numbers added together?
Ev's are just different form of consumption that at some point we will realise is a problem, we need to drive and travel less.

 

[camperhov]

I would say EVs would be measured under domestic for home charging. EVs at filling stations/charging points might go under transport?

Cant see a split by transport based on type, such as trains, tube etc...

 

[Lightning]

Simple maths i know but if transport is 5.5 with around 200k out of 40m cars or 0.5% being ev's then when they are all ev's does the 5.5 not move towards 1,100? or put another way more than all the other numbers added together?
Ev's are just different form of consumption that at some point we will realise is a problem, we need to drive and travel less.

Recent analysis from Cambridge Econometrics shows that a wholesale move to electric vehicles would add just 10% to overall UK electricity demand.

How will we power the electric car revolution? | Friends of the Earth

The electric vehicle revolution is sweeping the UK. But how can we power it? Can the grid take it? What does this mean for climate change? Your questions answered.

friendsoftheearth.uk

 

[Saesneg Shaun]

One rotation of a large wind turbine blade (off shore Aberdeen) can produce enough energy to power the average house for a day.

Providing
a) you can store that energy somewhere
b) its rotating

 

[Lightning]

ncrease in electricity demand of only 10%
Our analysis shows that fears over how the electricity grid will cope with the move to all electric vehicles are misplaced. Electric vehicles would lead to an increase in electricity demand of only 10% by 2040. One of the reasons for the misplaced fear over electricity demand is the assumption that electric vehicles use power in the same way as a conventional ICE (internal combustion engine), but ICE’s are significantly less efficient that an electric battery at transforming power to forward propulsion.

2040 government ban positive: but significant challenges remain - Cambridge Econometrics

This week the UK government announced a ban on all sales of conventional petrol and diesel vehicles in 2040. This move sends a clear statement of intent to EU policymakers, consumers, manufacturers and investors, but it is what happens in the intervening years that is critical. Phil Summerton...

www.camecon.com

 

[Lightning]

Providing
a) you can store that energy somewhere
b) its rotating

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

ncrease in electricity demand of only 10%
Our analysis shows that fears over how the electricity grid will cope with the move to all electric vehicles are misplaced. Electric vehicles would lead to an increase in electricity demand of only 10% by 2040. One of the reasons for the misplaced fear over electricity demand is the assumption that electric vehicles use power in the same way as a conventional ICE (internal combustion engine), but ICE’s are significantly less efficient that an electric battery at transforming power to forward propulsion.

2040 government ban positive: but significant challenges remain - Cambridge Econometrics

This week the UK government announced a ban on all sales of conventional petrol and diesel vehicles in 2040. This move sends a clear statement of intent to EU policymakers, consumers, manufacturers and investors, but it is what happens in the intervening years that is critical. Phil Summerton...

www.camecon.com

By 2040 I can guarantee that if I’m still breathing, all my transportation will be electric - mobility scooter and stair lift

 

[Saesneg Shaun]

View attachment 67427

1 Large scale hydrogen production & storage is unpractical
2 & 4 take time to bring generation online and can't react quickly to changing network conditions
3 say what?

 

[Lightning]

1 Large scale hydrogen production & storage is unpractical
2 & 4 take time to bring generation online and can't react quickly to changing network conditions
3 say what?

5. Lose money - sounds straightforward to implement.

 

[flying banana]

I own five flats - all in Inner London and all have gardens. Two have private gardens (one of which has two private gardens) and three have shared gardens.

I'm on about real flats. That people live in. Not 1800 quid a month second home london flats.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

I'm on about real flats. That people live in. Not 1800 quid a month second home london flats.

View attachment 67428

Can you imagine fitting an air source heat pump on the 20th floor! Expensive scaffolding job

 

[Ch1pbutty]

It makes no

Can you imagine fitting an air source heat pump on the 20th floor! Expensive scaffolding job

They can fit the external wall insulation at the same time & split the cost.

 

[Lightning]

Can you imagine fitting an air source heat pump on the 20th floor! Expensive scaffolding job

Maybe, fit a biomass boiler, instead, or maybe your landlord will anyway.

Find Biomass Boiler Grants in the UK (2023) | GreenMatch

Government grants like RHI can help you repay your investment if you're switching to a biomass boiler. Here's how they work and how much you can save. Have a look at different offers from UK suppliers.

www.greenmatch.co.uk

 

[Lightning]

It makes no


They can fit the external wall insulation at the same time & split the cost.

Perhaps internal wall insulation would be more cost effective.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

I'm on about real flats. That people live in. Not 1800 quid a month second home london flats.

probably want to double that £1800

 

[WelshGas]

I suggest a Poll on this Thread as to who will have the last word.