Norway to 'completely ban petrol powered cars by 2025'

[treecity]

Wow, some headline.

Article here: http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...-replace-with-electric-vehicles-a7065616.html

 

[fred]

Great news. This is just part of a global move in many industries to divest fossil fuels.

 

[Hotel California]

Think they only mean "selling in Norway" not "driving in Norway"
there is no way they can change every car in to electric by that time.

 

[estresao]

Agree, they will ban sell new cars with petrol, not to drive them. I think it's a great news which should be implemented worldwide.

 

[WelshGas]

So,
1. Where / How will the electricity be produced.
2. Will the batteries be produced and disposed of in an environmentally manner.
3. Has anyone done a full Environmental Impact Review - from cradle to grave of these new, proposed vehicles?

 

[Hotel California]

So,
1. Where / How will the electricity be produced.
2. Will the batteries be produced and disposed of in an environmentally manner.
3. Has anyone done a full Environmental Impact Review - from cradle to grave of these new, proposed vehicles?

.....and what on earth is Norway gonna do with all thier oil they got in thier property.
Making it even more a niche-product?

 

[fred]

They could leave it in the ground.

 

[DM]

I applaud Norway if this comes to pass.

Of course its somewhat ironic that they can afford to do it because of their oil wealth. But hats off to them - they've invested it more wisely than we did.

 

[Amarillo]

1. Where / How will the electricity be produced.

I am only able to answer the first of these questions.

Well over 90% of Norway's electricity production is hydroelectric. Due to the country's geography, there is plenty of scope for further expansion.

Norway uses a lot of electricity: 26 MWh per person compared to an EU15 average of 7.4 MWh per person.

 

[Digger]

One observation. If we massively increase electric vehicles how do we generate the electricity bearing in mind that inefficient wind farms are not reliable? Concept good reality may be somewhat different.

 

[T6 CFO]

They could leave it in the ground.

Coincidentally I was at a talk last night where this was discussed as was @Welsh Gas point on cradle to grave.

It was part of a wider economic discussion.



Mike

 

[pjm-84]

Liking our hybrid. 185mpg and rising over the 4500miles Mainly short journeys and one blast to Wales and back which dropped the mpg down from 300mpg to 100mpg (early on) . Use the Cali now for longer trips.

We have Solar PVs so generate electricity and earn. Now on econ 7 so 5p per KWH when charging at night.Mileage on electricity so far equals 3.5miles per kWh. Fuel enquilavent mpg therefore around 355mpg.

 

[fred]

One observation. If we massively increase electric vehicles how do we generate the electricity bearing in mind that inefficient wind farms are not reliable? Concept good reality may be somewhat different.

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-for-may-producing-more-electricity-than-coal

 

[briwy]

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-for-may-producing-more-electricity-than-coal

All very well in May when demand is relatively low. No way would this work in winter.
Coincidentally I was chatting to a guy last night about Norway. Apparently electric cars there need no tax, all the charging points are free (and there are a lot) and they already have a relatively a high number of Teslas etc.
To bear out what WG has said, I read somewhere that if 20,000 people in the UK plugged in their electric cars at the same time it would take the output from one power station.
I agree with WG about the complete environmental concept. I was involved through work with so called "environmentally kind" power stations. These are relatively small output and burn straw, wood chippings etc. All well and good until you find out that because these are low calorific value there isn't enough domestically produced fuel to go round wood chips are being imported from Norway and Canada.

 

[Amarillo]

One observation. If we massively increase electric vehicles how do we generate the electricity bearing in mind that inefficient wind farms are not reliable? Concept good reality may be somewhat different.

One of Britain's vast largely untapped resources is tidal power. Generation is predictable and reliable, and the UK has some of the world's greatest tidal ranges.

 

[WelshGas]

One of the least environmentally friendly vehicles , based on a whole life environmental impact is the Prius.
One of the most environmentally friendly vehicles is the Land Rover Defender as over 70% of those ever made since 1947 are still running.

Reason the exotic materials used in the Prius batteries etc: have to be made and disposed of. The Defender just rusts away.

 

[T6 CFO]

One of Britain's vast largely untapped resources is tidal power. Generation is predictable and reliable, and the UK has some of the world's greatest tidal ranges.

You might like a read of this.

http://www.tidallagooncardiff.com/the-project/44/


Mike

 

[Digger]

There are hardly any coal power stations and as electricity has to be used as produced- it cannot be stored - even Blair accepted the requirement for nuclear power. Solar and wind are at the mercy of nature. Do we have the capability of supplying our needs or do we go and accept nuclear or as yet to be discovered saviour. That is the problem or we revert back to being candle powered.. Rose tinted glasses are evident but the truth is we need to be realistic and either reduce consumption dramatically or accept nuclear.
I know the truth regarding wind power no matter what the statistics for government or companies show and when they say it generates x amount the truth is that that is for about 20 percent of the time - much less for the remaining 80 percent. ( from wind farm data and study at Uni).
Obviously there is scope for tidal but remember 70 million people use a hell of a lot of energy.
That said I would love a hybrid Ocean

 

[Velma's Dad]

This article from 2013 is, IMO, a very balanced summary of the question of how much 'greener' EVs are, or might be:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22001356

It makes the point that Norway with its predominance of hydroelectric generation can, as @Crispin observes, achieve a bigger benefit than the UK whose generation mix is mostly fossil fuel based. Still, they put a 10% advantage in the UK for EVs at present, which is significant and will grow assuming the mix continues to shifts over time towards renewables or indeed nuclear (which of course it may not, for some time, but that depends on a lot of factors).

Meanwhile a lot of very exciting development going on in battery technology, both for vehicles themselves and for home energy storage which will smooth grid demand... and indeed for grid storage at some point, possibly. so looking at the comparative green economics of today's EVs isn't necessarily valid for the near future.

Just in the interests of being transparent: all the cars in Velma's household are currently internal combustion - but (cover your ears, Velma) I'm watching the EV sector with interest.

 

[WelshGas]

This article from 2013 is, IMO, a very balanced summary of the question of how much 'greener' EVs are, or might be:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22001356

It makes the point that Norway with its predominance of hydroelectric generation can, as @Crispin observes, achieve a bigger benefit than the UK whose generation mix is mostly fossil fuel based. Still, they put a 10% advantage in the UK for EVs at present, which is significant and will grow assuming the mix continues to shifts over time towards renewables or indeed nuclear (which of course it may not, for some time, but that depends on a lot of factors).

Meanwhile a lot of very exciting development going on in battery technology, both for vehicles themselves and for home energy storage which will smooth grid demand... and indeed for grid storage at some point, possibly. so looking at the comparative green economics of today's EVs isn't necessarily valid for the near future.

Just in the interests of being transparent: all the cars in Velma's household are currently internal combustion - but (cover your ears, Velma) I'm watching the EV sector with interest.

Sorry but once again a typical " Green " article that just concentrates on the Electricity required to produce and run an EV - nothing about the environmental impact of the vehicle when scrapped or when batteries are replaced, nor any info about the environmental impact of mining, extracting the exotic elements/compunds that are used and have to be reclaimed at end of life.

 

[Hotel California]

On green and eco products you can discus ages and still not have the pro's and con's .
For me waste is waste , the less the better but try it in real life , very hard
There's one issue they should solve , the earth's population is waaaayyyy to high.
The earth can deal with resorcing products like oil , gas , metal...
There are enough plants and fish in the sea to feed the people ....
but not at the speed the population is rising.
We are distroing the earth as the Neanderthalers did 10.000y ago before the iceage

 

[Velma's Dad]

Sorry but once again a typical " Green " article that just concentrates on the Electricity required to produce and run an EV - nothing about the environmental impact of the vehicle when scrapped or when batteries are replaced, nor any info about the environmental impact of mining, extracting the exotic elements/compunds that are used and have to be reclaimed at end of life.

Actually the article does refer to, and indeed links to, a study (Majeau-Bettez, 2013), in which the researchers attempted to provide a full 'cradle to grave' (or perhaps, 'oilwell to landfill') LCA which tries its best to account the embodied energy in manufacturing and disposal.

The trouble with all studies like this is that the results are sensitive to a wide range of different assumptions , eg the assumed average lifetime mileage of the vehicle just for one factor.

You might have reason to feel these assumptions have been cherry-picked to favour a particular outcome, or you might assume that scientists working in environmental engineering are institutionally biased (that's not a perspective that I'd share).

But maybe debating the particulars of a peer-reviewed science article will get us beyond this forum... and certainly beyond me right at this moment as I'm packing the diesel-guzzling Cali for a long weekend starting tomorrow morning!

 

[Hotel California]

Was just googling the word "landfill" i see it used a lot here....had not heard of it
Do you have in UK no burning of wast using the heat for making new power...or is everything actualy put in the ground?

 

[WelshGas]

Was just googling the word "landfill" i see it used a lot here....had not heard of it
Do you have in UK no burning of wast using the heat for making new power...or is everything accutaly put in the ground?

Correct. No one wants an incinerator close by. There are a few, but most non-recyclable goes to landfill, old quarries, land depressions etc: then covered in soil and the methane produced commonly burnt off, rarely used for energy production.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Actually although term 'incinerator' is rarely used in the UK (due to a public scare about dioxins back in the 1980s) a lot of residual waste is in fact incinerated these days even though I think less than on the continent. It just gets called an 'Energy from Waste' plant so Joe Public doesn't get uptight.