Norway to 'completely ban petrol powered cars by 2025'

[fred]

digger sometimes I think you and I live on totally different planets!
http://qz.com/680661/germany-had-so...that-it-had-to-pay-people-to-use-electricity/
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/06/10/3786420/los-angeles-to-go-renewable/
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/06/09/3786417/solar-beats-coal-oil-gas/
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-for-may-producing-more-electricity-than-coal

 

[Geezso]

Nothing to do with closing fossil power stations down or anything.

 

[WelshGas]

digger sometimes I think you and I live on totally different planets!
http://qz.com/680661/germany-had-so...that-it-had-to-pay-people-to-use-electricity/
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/06/10/3786420/los-angeles-to-go-renewable/
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/06/09/3786417/solar-beats-coal-oil-gas/
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-for-may-producing-more-electricity-than-coal

Oh No. Here we go again. Alternative viewpoints not allowed. Debate must not be allowed. I am always right.

Unfortunately we ALL live on the same planet BUT we don't ALL have to agree no matter what anyone else says. We are ALL allowed our own viewpoints.

 

[Kevthegas]

Slightly off topic but in the building industry /gas side we were told back in 2011 that no new housing to be built from 2016 will have natural gas installed.

WE have lots of new housing in West Sussex at the moment and not a single solar Pv or Thermal panel in sight.

Governments all around the world make these promises but few come to fruition.

Kev

 

[dynamicstall]

One observation. If we massively increase electric vehicles how do we generate the electricity bearing in mind that inefficient wind farms are not reliable? Concept good reality may be somewhat different.

 

[dynamicstall]

Wow, some headline.

Article here: http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...-replace-with-electric-vehicles-a7065616.html

Defrosting and keeping warm in a Scandinavian winter will be fun with no engine!

 

[Digger]

digger sometimes I think you and I live on totally different planets!
http://qz.com/680661/germany-had-so...that-it-had-to-pay-people-to-use-electricity/
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/06/10/3786420/los-angeles-to-go-renewable/
http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2016/06/09/3786417/solar-beats-coal-oil-gas/
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-for-may-producing-more-electricity-than-coal

For that I am grateful. I have a physics background and carry out research and analysis so have my feet firmly planted. I also have many friends in Germany and Poland who mirror my thoughts re the future. I therefor do not use others statistics as much printed reports do not show accurate information. At least I work in the scientific community.

 

[pjm-84]

I recently looked at a storage option for my domestic PV array. At £5k it wasn't cost effective.

 

[Geezso]

Ev claims on mileage is also ridiculously off. Never mind if its cold, dark and wet.
I wonder if these vehicles will face the vw emissions style review.
Pv systems will be the new ppi, the technology is ever changing and rarely see a return. The reason the electricity is fed back into the network and consumers are credited, is because it is unstoreable. As generally your out during the day whilst it maybe powers your fridge/ freezer and a washing machine on a programme, as soon as your home and its dark, your buying it back from the supplier.
Its like red wine or eggs. They are very bad for you, then they are not, then that are then not. Depends what the government need you to endorse.

 

[BikerGran]

I think we'll all have to go back to horsepower - the four legged kind. The waste products can be recycled in the production of food, and better still - it will reproduce itself! Oh and it won't break down as often, and even if it does, it will at least TRY!

 

[hirsty]

If every car in Norway was electric they could easily power all of them many times over using their vast hydro & thermal electricity generation. I've also read they've dropped purchase & lease VAT too.

Sadly we don't have the luxury here of practically free power here yet. One day the descendants of the Tesla Powerwall & Nissan Leaf & Prius will see off oil - it's just hard for the first few iterations - but a Moores Law of sorts will kick in & get us there eventually, assuming that vested interests can be overcome as readily as the technical challenges.

 

[Geezso]

The Prius is not an ev, its a range extender like e-golf, phev outlander etc.
I'm sure there are about 5 true ev retailing.

 

[hirsty]

I didn't say it was & put petrol in one yesterday.

Same difference anyway - it's produced a vast amount of data for Toyota to learn from, refine & progress. The descendants of each of these current machines will be unrecognisable from their current iterations & we'll soon enough be able to squeeze an amazing amount of juice out of a solar cell.

Lots of interesting info here too - eg: the 6x trial Leaf taxis are averaging 33K KM each

http://www.evnorway.no

 

[Geezso]

There are millions of info and lots of potential. I know the leaf inside out. Currenty best thing about it is the single ratio gearbox, makes dsg look old. And the regenerative charging under braking or no acceleration is very useful. Similar to kers system in F1, but regardless you need to drive with kid gloves in test conditions to reach the advertised ranges.

 

[Skylark2.0]

I am only able to answer the first of these questions.

Well over 90% of Norway's electricity production is hydroelectric. Due to the country's geography, there is plenty of scope for further expansion.

Norway uses a lot of electricity: 26 MWh per person compared to an EU15 average of 7.4 MWh per person.

Maybe that's because they get so little light in the winter and it's really cold?

 

[Hotel California]

Guess personalised licence plates like on this Tesla would show up more and more....
Spotted yesterday , you need enlarge a bit

 

[Digger]

If every car in Norway was electric they could easily power all of them many times over using their vast hydro & thermal electricity generation. I've also read they've dropped purchase & lease VAT too.

Sadly we don't have the luxury here of practically free power here yet. One day the descendants of the Tesla Powerwall & Nissan Leaf & Prius will see off oil - it's just hard for the first few iterations - but a Moores Law of sorts will kick in & get us there eventually, assuming that vested interests can be overcome as readily as the technical challenges.

The main problem is energy production to satisfy our needs. Only tidal power has the dependability the other renewables are unreliable. We have to invest and experiment to find an alternative but as things stand nuclear seems obvious choice. Maybe some genius will come to save us so we live in hope. Nil desperandum.

 

[Amarillo]

Only tidal power has the dependability the other renewables are unreliable.

Using back of the envelope calculations:

The tidal range of the Severn Estuary is 15m, and its area is about 16,000 hectares, giving the tidal rise a mass of about 2.4 tn kg. Potential energy is mass x gravitational force x height, so the potential energy of a Severn Estuary tide is ~ 360 tn joules. Energy can be harnessed on a rising tide and falling tide, and tides usually occur twice a day, so in a day about 1.4 qn joules are released by Severn Estuary tides daily. That is an average of 16 billion watts, equivalent to half Britain's total average energy use of 622 watts per person.

 

[Velma's Dad]

That's a nice bit of maths for the back of an envelope Crispin, but unfortunately doesn't line up with real-world engineering assumptions for that type of scheme. Of course, whatever the theoretical potential energy available, you can't extract more than a fraction of the tide flows and turn them into electricity.

The Government's feasibility studies for a number of different options for the Severn tideway gave electricity outputs ranging from around 1 to 15 TWh/yr.

For comparison with the top end of those schemes, 15 TWh/yr is equivalent to about 1700 MW at continuous load, which is about what you get from a single biggish conventional (eg gas fired) power station. Just a few percent of the UK's total electricity demand, not a half.

I'm not knocking the whole idea of a tidal scheme, as it would provide reliable base load energy over a long lifespan. But it's only going to play a relatively minor role in the country's whole energy mix if it does get built. My belief is that it won't get built though, as the impact on the estuary's ecology would be too massive to get public acceptance.

We've come a long way from Calis in this thread but hey, it's an interesting discussion anyway.

 

[WelshGas]

That's a nice bit of maths for the back of an envelope Crispin, but unfortunately doesn't line up with real-world engineering assumptions for that type of scheme. Of course, whatever the theoretical potential energy available, you can't extract more than a fraction of the tide flows and turn them into electricity.

The Government's feasibility studies for a number of different options for the Severn tideway gave electricity outputs ranging from around 1 to 15 TWh/yr.

For comparison with the top end of those schemes, 15 TWh/yr is equivalent to about 1700 MW at continuous load, which is about what you get from a single biggish conventional (eg gas fired) power station. Just a few percent of the UK's total electricity demand, not a half.

I'm not knocking the whole idea of a tidal scheme, as it would provide reliable base load energy over a long lifespan. But it's only going to play a relatively minor role in the country's whole energy mix if it does get built. My belief is that it won't get built though, as the impact on the estuary's ecology would be too massive to get public acceptance.

We've come a long way from Calis in this thread but hey, it's an interesting discussion anyway.

They are considering smaller schemes - Swansea Bay and an extension tidal Lagoon around Cardiff Bay.

 

[Lightning]

 

[motacyclist]

I’m not surprised at that chart. Early this year we got sick of my wife’s Golf GTE PHEV with it’s software problems and added complexity of the two power trains and changed it for a BMW I3s BEV. It’s a bit short on range but she loves it, and I was so impressed with the pure electric performance that I bought myself a Tesla. I wouldn’t have said it at one time, but now I think it’s the way forward and I wouldn’t buy another petrol or diesel vehicle. I love the Cali but it’s so difficult now to justify using it the way we used to just for days out and shopping.

I have to say that both the BMW and Tesla software and companion apps work much better than the clunky VW Connect thing we had for the GTE. It never worked properly the whole time we had the car and ruined our experience of it. It will be interesting to see how owners get on with the new ID3 and ID4 BEV’s, that will give us a pointer to how we will fare when the electric California eventually becomes a viable alternative to what we have now.

 

[Camperfamily]

I’m not surprised at that chart. Early this year we got sick of my wife’s Golf GTE PHEV with it’s software problems and added complexity of the two power trains and changed it for a BMW I3s BEV. It’s a bit short on range but she loves it, and I was so impressed with the pure electric performance that I bought myself a Tesla. I wouldn’t have said it at one time, but now I think it’s the way forward and I wouldn’t buy another petrol or diesel vehicle. I love the Cali but it’s so difficult now to justify using it the way we used to just for days out and shopping.

I have to say that both the BMW and Tesla software and companion apps work much better than the clunky VW Connect thing we had for the GTE. It never worked properly the whole time we had the car and ruined our experience of it. It will be interesting to see how owners get on with the new ID3 and ID4 BEV’s, that will give us a pointer to how we will fare when the electric California eventually becomes a viable alternative to what we have now.

i3 here too and agree it’s an absolutely fantastic drive. Effortless and extremely comfortable.

 

[Camperfamily]

View attachment 67200

This can be explained by the massive incentives afforded to electric vehicles on Norway:

- No annual road tax
- Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles
- Parking fee for EVs implemented locally but with an upper limit of a maximum 50% of the full price
- Access to bus lanes
- Company car tax reduction reduced to 40%
- No purchase/import taxes
- Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase


Source:

The Incentives Stimulating Norway's Electric Vehicle Success - CleanTechnica

When it comes to electric vehicles, Norway is a world leader. Battery electric vehicles sales accounted for 42% of the market there in 2019.

cleantechnica.com

 

[Elly Swanson]

So,
1. Where / How will the electricity be produced.
2. Will the batteries be produced and disposed of in an environmentally manner.
3. Has anyone done a full Environmental Impact Review - from cradle to grave of these new, proposed vehicles?

Exactly my thoughts WG. I worry that people will be carried along on the wave of enthusiasm without asking important questions like this and being hoodwinked in to thinking it's all really environmentally friendly.