Norway to 'completely ban petrol powered cars by 2025'

[Lightning]

There are no hard numbers in the report, it is all "we think", " we believe" etc. The very first sentence you quote is meaningless. There is no such unit as a GW! It is GW.hours. Without the time element the 62GW means nothing. 62 GW over what time domain, one hour, a day, a week, a year. Who knows! I have attended electric and fuel cell meetings in most parts of the world going back to 1990. Every, that is in every single, meeting I have asked for hard numbers of where the electricity is to come from. I have never been giving any numbers in 30 years! So here are some numbers. UK used 50 billion litres of petrol/diesel per year (50-60 in 2018). One litre is the equivalent of 9.5kW.h of electricity. 9.5 x 50 billion is (9.5 x 50,000,000,000) 4.75 x 10E11kW.h. This is 475,000,000 MW.h or 475,000GW.h over the year. Hinckley Point C should produce 3.5GW.h at max out put so over a year that is 3.5x365x24 = 31,937.5 GW.h over the year but we need 475,000GW hours over the year. Hence the number of Hinckley Point C's needed is 475,000/32,937.5 = 14.4 Hinckley Point C's. Now assume I am 50% out, we still need 7 Hinckley Point C's. If you convert this to 2MW.h wind turbines (you need to triple the 475,000GW.h as one needs to install 3MW.h to get 1MW.h) each needing up to 4 acres of space the UK land area disappears! I am all for e vehicles but they need to be powered! Time to be honest with the public, but the politics does not allow that. Shame. The sh*t will hit the fan eventually.

Having studied electronic engineering at university, I’m fairly sure that Watts are a real unit and Giga is a real prefix. 1 Watt is equal to 1J/s. So if you are contuisly producing 62GW for 1 hour you have produced 62GWh of electricity. Over 1 year there are 8760 hours, so 62GW * 88760h = 543120 GWh of electricity, which comfortably exceeds the 475GWh you calculate we need.

 

[Wildcamper]

Having studied electronic engineering at university, I’m fairly sure that Watts are a real unit and Giga is a real prefix. 1 Watt is equal to 1J/s. So if you are contuisly producing 62GW for 1 hour you have produced 62GWh of electricity. Over 1 year there are 8760 hours, so 62GW * 88760h = 543120 GWh of electricity, which comfortably exceeds the 475GWh you calculate we need.

No it's 475000GW.h that is needed.

 

[Lightning]

No it's 475000GW.h that is needed.

Yes, and it’s 543000GW that are produced.

 

[Lightning]

Yes, and it’s 543000GW that are produced.

GWh not GW

 

[flying banana]

It's not what's needed that's the issue. I re iterate my point about flats, and terraced housing , stolen charging cables at 500 quid a pop. In towns like mine electric will never ever work for these reasons alone . Yes sht hole towns with no middle class driveways. How on earth are they going to deal with that lot ? Then theres heavy oil burning in shipping. Oh let's make an electric 20000 tonne ship. Nuclear is the only way forward here ,followed by burying the waste under thousands of tonnes of none environmentally friendly concrete.. Then jcbs, earth movers ,combine harvesters tractors buses and trains? Electric will never work. It's for middle class commuters and that's it.

 

[Wildcamper]

GWh not GW

But all that electricity is currently used, if all vehicles go electric we will need another 475000GW.h on top of what is already used.

 

[Lightning]

It's not what's needed that's the issue. I re iterate my point about flats and terraced housing stolen charging cables at 500 quid a pop. In towns like mine electric will never ever work for these reasons alone . Yes sht hole towns with no middle class driveways. How on earth are they going to deal with that lot ? Then theres heavy oil burning in shipping. Oh let's make an electric 20000 tonne ship. Nuclear is the only way forward here . Then jcbs earth moves combine harvesters tractors buses and trains? Electric will never work. It's for middle class commuters and that's it.

I think the proles will have to drive to charging points,

But all that electricity is currently used, if all vehicles go electric we will need another 475000GW.h on top of what is already used.

Not according to the national grid, because they have the currently unused capacity available at night and off peak times.

 

[Wildcamper]

It's not what's needed that's the issue. I re iterate my point about flats and terraced housing stolen charging cables at 500 quid a pop. In towns like mine electric will never ever work for these reasons alone . Yes sht hole towns with no middle class driveways. How on earth are they going to deal with that lot ? Then theres heavy oil burning in shipping. Oh let's make an electric 20000 tonne ship. Nuclear is the only way forward here . Then jcbs earth moves combine harvesters tractors buses and trains? Electric will never work. It's for middle class commuters and that's it.

You are correct. The "where is the electricity coming from" question is only the beginning. Add in the extensive environmental and human damage caused by extracting cobalt and neodymium and then start thinking about battery recycling etc etc.

 

[Wildcamper]

I think the proles will have to drive to charging points,

Not according to the national grid, because they have the currently unused capacity available at night and off peak times.

Do why does the National Grid import so much electricity from France? The UK has very little unused capacity.

 

[Lightning]

Do why does the National Grid import so much electricity from France? The UK has very little unused capacity.

Do they currently import electricity from France at night? As they state above what’s important is when the demand occurs, they have capacity to cover the demand off peak.

 

[Amarillo]

Do they currently import electricity from France at night? As they state above what’s important is when the demand occurs, they have capacity to cover the demand off peak.

I think that the grid infrastructure can cope with increased demand, but there will need to be extra generating capacity.

 

[Lightning]

I think that the grid infrastructure can cope with increased demand, but there will need to be extra generating capacity.

Well the national grid seem to disagree, given the peak demand is predicted to be lower than their generating capacity they did in 2002.


Enough capacity exists
With the first of these, the energy element, the most demand for electricity we’ve had in recent years in the UK was for 62GW in 2002. Since then, due to improved energy efficiency such as the installation of solar panels, the nation’s peak demand has fallen by roughly 16 per cent. Even if the impossible happened and we all switched to EVs overnight, we think demand would only increase by around 10 per cent. So we’d still be using less power as a nation than we did in 2002 and this is well within the range of manageable load fluctuation.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

Do they currently import electricity from France at night? As they state above what’s important is when the demand occurs, they have capacity to cover the demand off peak.

Yes, Energy is traded 24/7. Sometimes it’s cheaper to buy from France / NW Europe and vice versa. There is a cable that runs across the English Channel for this purpose.

Channel Cable UK-France Interconnector

UK - France electricity interconnector. New Long term transmission capacity between the French and UK electricity markets.

www.channelcable.co.uk

 

[Lightning]

Yes, Energy is traded 24/7. Sometimes it’s cheaper to buy from France / NW Europe and vice versa. There is a cable that runs across the English Channel for this purpose.

Channel Cable UK-France Interconnector

UK - France electricity interconnector. New Long term transmission capacity between the French and UK electricity markets.

www.channelcable.co.uk

So it’s cost driven not demand driven. At peak times they dont have the spare capacity so maybe they need to import some during these periods, at off peak times they do have spare capacity, so the only reason they would import electricity is because it’s cheaper, not because they don’t have the capacity here.
They state that they have the capacity to power EVs, they are probably best placed to know.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

So it’s cost driven not demand driven. At peak times they dont have the spare capacity so maybe they need to import some during these periods, at off peak times they do have spare capacity, so the only reason they would import electricity is because it’s cheaper, not because they don’t have the capacity here.
They state that they have the capacity to power EVs, they are probably best placed to know.

Yes, that’s correct. But problem occurs when other countries also see increased energy demand (say as a result of more EV’s), then the energy import price likely to increase hence the argument for UK to build more nuclear power stations, wind farms etc to meet demand.

 

[Lightning]

Yes, that’s correct. But problem occurs when other countries also see increased energy demand (say as a result of more EV’s), then the energy import price likely to increase hence the argument for UK to build more nuclear power stations, wind farms etc to meet demand.

According to the national grid they have the capacity today to meet the demand at off peak times. Presumably France is the same, in that at off peak times they currently have spare capacity for their use. It may get more expensive to use our own capacity rather than import it, but building additional power stations does not make sense if we have the spare capacity available today.

 

[Wildcamper]

In 2016 the UK imported 11TW.h from France, 5.5TW.h from Holland and 1TW.h from Ireland.

 

[GSX1300R]

.....and what on earth is Norway gonna do with all thier oil they got in thier property.
Making it even more a niche-product?

Norway can’t have it both ways...Ban the sale of oil products at home but sell as much as they can to the rest of the gullible world... Let’s hear Norway say they will no longer be selling oil anywhere after 2025..

 

[Ch1pbutty]

According to the national grid they have the capacity today to meet the demand at off peak times. Presumably France is the same, in that at off peak times they currently have spare capacity for their use. It may get more expensive to use our own capacity rather than import it, but building additional power stations does not make sense if we have the spare capacity available today.

True, but the UK government will want to build more power stations as the construction is a big boost to the economy and creates jobs. Build cost is mainly covered by France (EDF) & China (CGN) who then eventually recover the cost from the UK consumer through energy bills.

 

[Lightning]

In 2016 the UK imported 11TW.h from France, 5.5TW.h from Holland and 1TW.h from Ireland.

I’m not sure why it’s relevant where the electricity comes from? It seems that they trade electricity for cost purposes, so it doesn’t mean they have to import it, they do it because it’s cheaper.
Anyway 17.5TWh represents about 3% of the annual generating capability.

 

[Lightning]

True, but the UK government will want to build more power stations as the construction is a big boost to the economy and creates jobs. Build cost is mainly covered by France (EDF) & China (CGN) who then eventually recover the cost from the UK consumer through energy bills.

This makes sense, I suppose the infrastructure needs renewing periodically.

 

[steve_b]

So here are some numbers. UK used 50 billion litres of petrol/diesel per year (50-60 in 2018). One litre is the equivalent of 9.5kW.h of electricity. 9.5 x 50 billion is (9.5 x 50,000,000,000) 4.75 x 10E11kW.h. This is 475,000,000 MW.h or 475,000GW.h over the year.

one thing you may be missing is that your 9.5kWh energy in a litre of petrol /diesel is that internal combustion engines typically are about 20% efficient - the rest wasted as heat - so the amount of pure electric power needed to replace them in transport is a significant amount less than the maths predicts

 

[Calimili]

Even assuming there is extra capacity which I doubt, I'm not sure with France getting EV as well, how much cheaper the electricity will be when buying from France..

 

[Lightning]

Even assuming there is extra capacity which I doubt, I'm not sure with France getting EV as well, how much cheaper the electricity will be when buying from France..

The government will have to recoup all their fuel duty revenue somehow too.

 

[Calimili]

The government will have to recoup all their fuel duty revenue somehow too.

Correct. So what we will achieve? we'll spend more to move the production of CO2 and the pollution somewhere else, but we'll feel "green" driving our electric car. Fair?