Safety of members is the duty of any forum

[calibusje]

Not my post, Ozzy Pete.

It’s simply about free speech. If we’re all terrified of opening our mouths in fear of someone changing context to suit their agenda, then we may as well just all stay at home and stop communicating!!

Certainly not to offend you, may I ask why you quoted my post and reacted: not my post? Genuinely asking if I wrote something wrong?

 

[sidepod]

Sorry, it read as if you believed it was my post that started the perceived (by some) issue.

 

[calibusje]

Sorry, it read as if you believed it was my post that started the perceived (by some) issue.

Oh ok, thanks for the reply. Cheers.

 

[CamperFam]

We didn't see the post in question sadly - it sounds like it might have been valuable insight. However being a solid advocate and ally of EDI within the workplace and society as a whole, it's incredibly important to tailor language throughout our lives. What was perfectly acceptable just 5 years ago now is not.

Whilst ignorance is not an excuse, it also shouldn't be something peopler are chastised for. Some simply are not aware because of the priviledge of their environment. And that should be an opportunity to help educate, not attack. Social and cultural norms are changing so quickly, it's important we all support each other in not just what is and isn't acceptable, but that we take the time to educate each other too.

Especially important for us campervan owners, with all of our travelling and experiencing of other people and cultures.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

Having not read your post I have no view specifically but I would suggest you take heart of Calikevs post that the thread was deleted because of conflict, not racism.

The written word is a bit of a minefield isn’t it. I find that one of the biggest problems is that over time language changes …… a lot.

Words that we used in the 70s and 80s to describe race, ethnicity, gender, physical conditions, sexuality are now inappropriate. They cause difficulties for younger generations who have developed more inclusive language.

The question becomes, how do we keep up with changes in language socially? Now that my kids have left home the only people I have to check my language are my peers, we use the same words, so that’s no good. Eventually our language gets stuck in an era and to younger others we can appear to be what we are not.

A minefield I think waiting for us all as we get older.

You are absolutely correct about language changing over time and all right minded people will avoid inappropriate and/or offensive interactions.

However, perhaps the pendulum has swung a little too far? This book is a good read and highlights that oversensitivity to things that an individual, or group of individuals, disagree with is actually damaging to them and wider society. We see it with the ‘cancel culture’ at places like the Oxford Union where attempts to ban speakers have been made by the Student Union..

This review of the book is IMO quite good:

Imagine that you want to start a fitness program to increase your strength and endurance and sign up at the local gym. Upon arrival, you notice that management has removed all of the weights, concerned that heavy weights can cause stress and injury. Instead, you are instructed to perform light body-weight exercises that you can already safely handle. As you go through the motions of exercise, progress is nonexistent and you’ll be entirely unprepared for any activities that might require greater strength and endurance.

Welcome to (some) modern universities, which engage in the intellectual equivalent of removing the weights from the gym by creating safe spaces, disinviting speakers, removing offensive material, and inhibiting free speech and inquiry that should be the staple of a college education. Attending a university with these policies to prepare for the challenges of the outside world is like training for a marathon in our weightless gym.

The analogy is apt because the human mind, like the musculoskeletal system, is antifragile. Whereas fragile systems break under pressure and resilient systems can withstand pressure without change, antifragile systems become stronger under pressure. If you want to enhance your physical strength, you have to lift progressively heavier weight; if you want to enhance your intellectual fortitude, you have to expose yourself to different and sometimes controversial or offensive ideas.

 

[Iron Van]

Getting back to the original reason that Ozzy Pete wrote his experience, maybe there should be a location where people can check on the forum about certain countries (and maybe there is and I just haven’t seen it). It could be set up like a Country Brief with just relevant details without reading hundreds of pages when the threads change direction. I for one was grateful of the warning and would like to look on the ‘France’ page to know that there is currently a spate of attempted thefts of people parked in car parks when you get off the ferry.

People could then add information to these pages such as ‘Malta - if you have a car crash, don’t move your vehicle. Call the Local Warden etc..

 

[Vagophile]

Oh dear, I must have been asleep at my desk.
I read @Ozzy Pete's original post and thought it a useful warning to others; there was no hint of racism to my mind. I missed all of the subsequent discussion.
What I did take from it was that , for a long time now, such an incident is always a strong possibility, especially so close to a channel port. My first experience of this kind was over twenty years ago in the dunes at Calais (now a "no go" area) when two fugitives tried to hide themselves under my motorbike cover with the intention of having a free ride to England. The situation has only worsened since then.

 

[The Tall Luthier]

You are absolutely correct about language changing over time and all right minded people will avoid inappropriate and/or offensive interactions.

However, perhaps the pendulum has swung a little too far? This book is a good read and highlights that oversensitivity to things that an individual, or group of individuals, disagree with is actually damaging to them and wider society. We see it with the ‘cancel culture’ at places like the Oxford Union where attempts to ban speakers have been made by the Student Union..

This review of the book is IMO quite good:

Imagine that you want to start a fitness program to increase your strength and endurance and sign up at the local gym. Upon arrival, you notice that management has removed all of the weights, concerned that heavy weights can cause stress and injury. Instead, you are instructed to perform light body-weight exercises that you can already safely handle. As you go through the motions of exercise, progress is nonexistent and you’ll be entirely unprepared for any activities that might require greater strength and endurance.

Welcome to (some) modern universities, which engage in the intellectual equivalent of removing the weights from the gym by creating safe spaces, disinviting speakers, removing offensive material, and inhibiting free speech and inquiry that should be the staple of a college education. Attending a university with these policies to prepare for the challenges of the outside world is like training for a marathon in our weightless gym.

The analogy is apt because the human mind, like the musculoskeletal system, is antifragile. Whereas fragile systems break under pressure and resilient systems can withstand pressure without change, antifragile systems become stronger under pressure. If you want to enhance your physical strength, you have to lift progressively heavier weight; if you want to enhance your intellectual fortitude, you have to expose yourself to different and sometimes controversial or offensive ideas.

View attachment 114298

Thanks for that GG.

I wonder whether two issues have been conflated here. My thoughts were around the language of inclusivity and how generational words have become anachronistic and inappropriate for modern day use. I don't think the language of inclusivity can ever really go too far.

Your thoughts centre more around the idea of a banning of ideas, a stifling of debate within society. There I have two opinions. I think what the far-right, Republican, populist, lunatic leaders are doing in Florida and Texas where they are removing all books from schools and universities that may possibly be contrary to their own ideologies is fascism, pure evil.

On 'cancel culture' I'm not too sure. I think this phrase is right up there with 'Wokerati Warrior' competing for 'stupid phrase of the decade'.

There are many incidents of speakers being canceled, some from theatres where their views are contrary to those of the owners as in the recent case of Graham Linehan. Some in our Universities, for example the recent event at the Oxford Union where Dr K Stock, a woman who's views on gender identity led her to resign her post as a lecturer, was eventually given a platform. My son went to her lecture and found it thought provoking!

In nearly all cases this idea of 'cancel culture' is ridiculous because of the fact that we hear about them. If we are hearing about someone who has supposedly been canceled, then they haven't been, we're hearing about them and their views. In both cases Linehan and Stock, their social media feeds received more traffic not less, their public profiles rose, all while the Daily Mail did its best to make people hate institutions for daring to make their own choices of what might be appropriate..

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

Thanks for that GG.

I wonder whether two issues have been conflated here. My thoughts were around the language of inclusivity and how generational words have become anachronistic and inappropriate for modern day use. I don't think the language of inclusivity can ever really go too far.

Your thoughts centre more around the idea of a banning of ideas, a stifling of debate within society. There I have two opinions. I think what the far-right, Republican, populist, lunatic leaders are doing in Florida and Texas where they are removing all books from schools and universities that may possibly be contrary to their own ideologies is fascism, pure evil.

On 'cancel culture' I'm not too sure. I think this phrase is right up there with 'Wokerati Warrior' competing for 'stupid phrase of the decade'.

There are many incidents of speakers being canceled, some from theatres where their views are contrary to those of the owners as in the recent case of Graham Linehan. Some in our Universities, for example the recent event at the Oxford Union where Dr K Stock, a woman who's views on gender identity led her to resign her post as a lecturer, was eventually given a platform. My son went to her lecture and found it thought provoking!

In nearly all cases this idea of 'cancel culture' is ridiculous because of the fact that we hear about them. If we are hearing about someone who has supposedly been canceled, then they haven't been, we hearing about them and their views. In both cases Linehan and Stock, their social media feeds received more traffic not less, their public profiles rose, all while the Daily Mail did its best to make people hate institutions for daring to make their own choices of what might be appropriate..

All good points.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

I didn't see the original post but our friends were robbed at an Aire in France in the Strasbourg area whilst they slept in their caravan.

Last time we went to France, we were lucky not to be robbed. At the time, these brazen attacks were common and they were typically being perpetrated by groups of black migrants. Whether such a statement is racist or factual I don't know. I expect these sort of distraction robberies are still prevalent.

Our experience below, but remember, this was broad daylight at a busy manned Aire / Service area.

This is what I wrote at the time (it's pre-pandemic era).

Fine welcome to France....
Now, we've known for a while not to leave our caravans un-attended at French Service Areas but today really took the biscuit...
The lesson - don't leave your car un-attended and keep your eyes wide open at all times.
We pulled into the service area near Arras on the A26, around 14:00 for a picnic lunch, parking next to a Merc with UK plates. Fairly busy and it was a fully serviced Aire.
We ate in the car and afterwards I headed to the toilets, leaving R in the car reading her phone. When I returned, a chap was pointing at my rear wheel which had an oily liquid dripping from it. He helped clean it off and suggested I drove it around the car park to see if the problem re-occurred. He then wandered off and the folks in the Merc, who had returned a little earlier, said he'd been looking suspiciously in the car and they'd told him to push off. He apparently had some accomplices in the trees near by. A closer look at the wheel suggested the oily liquid (probably vegetable oil) had been squirted from a bottle so clearly he wasn't there as a good Samaritan.
Brake fluid level was normal so we decided to head off at a steady pace. On the slip road out, the Merc driver was pulled up with a flat tyre. We stopped to help and tried to pump it up with our compressor. No luck, the trye had a slit in the side from a screwdriver.
Checked our tyre pressures and saw the wheel with the oil was 6 psi lower. The guy had let air out and was expecting the alarms to go off on our drive around the car park. Presumably he hadn't burst the tyre as the noise would have aroused R's attention.
Then we'd have been robbed whilst we attended to the deflated tyre.
You are warned... all in full daylight and it turns out we were the lucky ones...

 

[sidepod]

The thing that lit my fuse was the two people who objected to the original post failed to do any of the following-

Engage in any way with the topic of the post.

Stop and consider for a moment that the OP just might NOT be a racist bigot and, for all they know, may even work in an immigration centre?

Consider the tact that they were on a Cali forum and presumably own one themselves which means they’ve spent enough time on campsites around similar people to know that we’re not the type of people they love to hate.

No, instead they couldn’t believe their luck in spotting the Black word, dived straight in, guns blazing.
I genuinely pity people who live their lives like this.

 

[Wannabecamperman]

I saw your post although not any later comments. I found it helpful. I saw it as factual - so as I did not read it as being racist perhaps I am a racist.

A reference to someone's skin colour as a means of description (as per the OP) is in no way 'racist!

Anyone deleting posts or erroneously suggesting that any reference of race or colour means it must involve hatred or discrimination, is both utterly misguided, and also part of today's wokery problem.

Open your mind and accept the meaning as meant by the person who mentioned it, not your own narrow biases.

Criminals must be called out, using accurate descriptions to help others avoid danger, which was the sole intent of the OP.

 

[Boomer]

A reference to someone's skin colour as a means of description (as per the OP) is in no way 'racist!

Anyone deleting posts or erroneously suggesting that any reference of race or colour means it must involve hatred or discrimination, is both utterly misguided, and also part of today's wokery problem.

Open your mind and accept the meaning as meant by the person who mentioned it, not your own narrow biases.

Criminals must be called out, using accurate descriptions to help others avoid danger, which was the sole intent of the OP.

Woke (or "wokery") means socially aware, empathetic, well informed in a political or cultural sense. Not sure how that's a problem....

 

[Kayleigh]

I didn’t see the original post, but from what I see @Ozzy Pete was providing a factual account of an attempted robbery whilst on holiday.

If someone took offence they would surely have their reasons, but it’s probably better to point out that maybe certain comments could be phrased in a different way. Being one half of a mixed race marriage, I may be more sensitive and perceive comments differently to others who are not in my situation. After all, our personal reactions are partly driven by our individual life experiences.

Directly calling @Ozzy Pete a racist (which is what I understand happened) is only going to inflame tempers. By the same token, comments like calling the other person a ‘left wing nut job’ as per #6 do not help either and could also be construed as a personal insult against a fellow member. This is exactly the reason @calikev gave for deleting the previous thread.

 

[Wannabecamperman]

Woke (or "wokery") means socially aware, empathetic, well informed in a political or cultural sense. Not sure how that's a problem....

Wow.
Did you type that with a straight face?

'Wokery' as evidenced all too often of late, is the extremist cancel culture where the liberal far left shout down / bully / harrass / intimidate and even threaten violence, to anyone who has the temerity to express a viewpoint that differs from theirs.

If you sincerely wish to explore this insidious blight (mostly out of California) that is ruining free speech and the values and freedoms upon which the West was founded, then I suggest you look at the appalling treatment of JK Rowling, Sharron Davies, and countless Christians, Jews and Muslims, whose only crime was to voice traditional values and beliefs around the nuclear family.

I am a long-time supporter of https://citizengo.org/en-gb and should you wish to enlighten yourself of some of the ongoing issues around freedom of Religion and Speech and the awful effects this woke nonsense being taught in schools and universities is having, then you'll find it illuminating.

 

[Boomer]

Wow.
Did you type that with a straight face?

'Wokery' as evidenced all too often of late, is the extremist cancel culture where the liberal far left shout down / bully / harrass / intimidate and even threaten violence, to anyone who has the temerity to express a viewpoint that differs from theirs.

If you sincerely wish to explore this insidious blight (mostly out of California) that is ruining free speech and the values and freedoms upon which the West was founded, then I suggest you look at the appalling treatment of JK Rowling, Sharron Davies, and countless Christians, Jews and Muslims, whose only crime was to voice traditional values and beliefs around the nuclear family.

I am a long-time supporter of https://citizengo.org/en-gb and should you wish to enlighten yourself of some of the ongoing issues around freedom of Religion and Speech and the awful effects this woke nonsense being taught in schools and universities is having, then you'll find it illuminating.

I just checked the Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries for the definition.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

A year or two ago Grayson Perry did a USA road trip on his motorbike which was shown on TV.

It was very surprising to me that at dinner with a group of well healed people in Rhode Island (or Martha’s Vineyard) he suggested to them that it was their liberal (woke) agenda that might be the reason that far right groups were gaining traction.

In other words as a reaction to the left’s growing woke agenda, The Donald was voted in. The lefties therefore bore some responsibility.

It was surprising to me because I’d have put Grayson on the left of the political spectrum and I found his observations interesting. I seem to remember the other dinner guests being totally dumbfounded.

Where there is action there is always a reaction.

 

[andyinluton]

Last time we went to France, we were lucky not to be robbed. At the time, these brazen attacks were common and they were typically being perpetrated by groups of black migrants. Whether such a statement is racist or factual I don't know.

Thats the only bit of racism I've seen on either thread, if you don't know it's a fact, why would you state what the colour or status of those carrying out the attacks is? are you just making assumptions ........


20 years ago I would have probably made a similar statement, but living as an ethnic minority in my home town, working in a multicultural industry in central London, having a brother in law from the other side of the world & a wife with multi cultural roots, these days I am somewhat more sensitive as to what may offend.

 

[CamperFam]

'Wokism' is a terrible term because of it's misuse and misrepresentation. Wokism isn't a problem. Growing an awareness of acceptable norms in an every changing socio-economic landscape is key, and it's rife at the moment. I really sympathise for those from older generations who've had years of static tradition and being bombarded with these cultural changes.

What is an issue is intolerance for one another; both sides of the proverbial fence about situations that they had no control over. The mortgage rates and cost of living crisis hitting our young people - that's not the fault of every individual from the boomer generation. Being aggressively attacked over using terms out of habit which are no longer acceptable or appropriate isn't fair, and people should be considerate of that.

Equally, young people are moving from a wide community centric identities, to more individualised identities, built on their own individual values and breaking free from traditional norms that they feel entrapped by. If they want to identify as a he, she or they, that's absolutely for them to choose and should be respected for that challenging decision, not ostracised.

In short, you have a group who are heavily rooted (and understandably so) in traditional views and behaviours, contrasted by a group who are emerging in a heavily changing society that contradict or go against the pre-existing paradigm. Friction will always exist.

That friction creates tension, animocity, hate, and aggression. And dare I be so bold as to say neither of which should have a place amongst civil individuals within a campervan enthusiast forum built for exploring different places, countries, people and societies.

 

[The Tall Luthier]

Thats the only bit of racism I've seen on either thread, if you don't know it's a fact, why would you state what the colour or status of those carrying out the attacks is? are you just making assumptions ........


20 years ago I would have probably made a similar statement, but living as an ethnic minority in my home town, working in a multicultural industry in central London, having a brother in law from the other side of the world & a wife with multi cultural roots, these days I am somewhat more sensitive as to what may offend.

I agree with Andy here.

I understand how you knew they were black. How did you know they were migrants? Did you stop and share a Kronenbourg with them before they robbed you?

And if they were black, in your account it’s not relevant, they were thieves, hoodlums, carjackers, bad people. So many other words you could use to demonise them. You chose to describe them by their colour and status but it adds nothing but suspicion about motives.

I don’t mean to infer anything about @CaliforniaCylus and their values, I’m sure they are lovely just like the rest of us. But their choice of descriptors leaves room for ambiguity.

 

[CamperFam]

I agree with Andy here.

I understand how you knew they were black. How did you know they were migrants? Did you stop and share a Kronenbourg with them before they robbed you?

And if they were black, in your account it’s not relevant, they were thieves, hoodlums, carjackers, bad people. So many other words you could use to demonise them. You chose to describe them by their colour and status but it adds nothing but suspicion about motives.

I don’t mean to infer anything about @CaliforniaCylus and their values, I’m sure they are lovely just like the rest of us. But their choice of descriptors leaves room for ambiguity.

And that is the biggest challenge. Supporting and educating people to the right terminology to support and accept people (Equity, Diversity and Inclusion in play) is key, rather than going full-lunge

The litmus test is this: does the story or conversation you're telling need those personal characteristics listed? Referencing a persons ethnicity, gender, sexuality, disability - do they serve the conversation? If not, leave them out.

 

[The Tall Luthier]

Wow.
Did you type that with a straight face?

'Wokery' as evidenced all too often of late, is the extremist cancel culture where the liberal far left shout down / bully / harrass / intimidate and even threaten violence, to anyone who has the temerity to express a viewpoint that differs from theirs.

If you sincerely wish to explore this insidious blight (mostly out of California) that is ruining free speech and the values and freedoms upon which the West was founded, then I suggest you look at the appalling treatment of JK Rowling, Sharron Davies, and countless Christians, Jews and Muslims, whose only crime was to voice traditional values and beliefs around the nuclear family.

I am a long-time supporter of https://citizengo.org/en-gb and should you wish to enlighten yourself of some of the ongoing issues around freedom of Religion and Speech and the awful effects this woke nonsense being taught in schools and universities is having, then you'll find it illuminating.

Could you define Woke please?

Genuinely I’ve never met anyone that can do so above the level of ‘you know….. woke….. those liberal left extremists….. always banging on about woke stuff.’

To me it has two definitions
The first is in the dictionaries.
The second
Woke: adjective, pejorative: the ideas/people you are instructed to hate without questioning.

Eg Bloody Woke lefty lawyers stopping migrants getting on planes to Rwanda.
Hate lawyers and don’t question The fact that lawyers have no power and it’s actually judges making the ruling based on law that government and Parliament wrote.

 

[Ozzy Pete]

All of this just because I accurately described 3 scumbags that were Trying to Rob us near the docks in Caen.
None of what I said was racist just a 100% accurate description of the people
involved. Which I would have given to the police if requested.
I was quite prepared to use an amount of force to protect my Wife and property. Lucky for them I didn’t have to.
Is everyone on here saying they would have just let them take what they wanted? No I doubt it.
If you didn’t read the original that was deleted within a couple of hours it would be impossible to comment in retrospect.
I know what racism is like being born in England, living and serving in Australia for a number of years. I asked my workmates why do you call English pommie bastards. I was told it was a term of affection.
It used to bother lots but not me and I gave back as good as I got. They never bothered any more.
Just made me stronger.
The term is still used today.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

I understand how you knew they were black. How did you know they were migrants? Did you stop and share a Kronenbourg with them before they robbed you?

The police said that when they turned up. Apparently, there were at the time, a number of migrant camps in the woods around that Aire and allegedly other Aires close by larger cities.

To me that kind of felt feasible given the desperate nature of the attempted robberies in broad daylight at a busy place.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

All of this just because I accurately described 3 scumbags that were Trying to Rob us near the docks in Caen.
None of what I said was racist just a 100% accurate description of the people
involved. Which I would have given to the police if requested.
I was quite prepared to use an amount of force to protect my Wife and property. Lucky for them I didn’t have to.
Is everyone on here saying they would have just let them take what they wanted? No I doubt it.
If you didn’t read the original that was deleted within a couple of hours it would be impossible to comment in retrospect.
I know what racism is like being born in England, living and serving in Australia for a number of years. I asked my workmates why do you call English pommie bastards. I was told it was a term of affection.
It used to bother lots but not me and I gave back as good as I got. They never bothered any more.
Just made me stronger.
The term is still used today.

There is a small chain of bakers shops in Paris called The French Bastards. The founder worked in Australia for a while and was referred to as ‘you French bastard’ by his workmates. He took it as a term of endearment, rather than an insult and on return to France used it as the name for his business. Fantastic attitude