Which electric car to buy?

[Lambeth Cali]

I see that some are saying that with the electricity price rise, and more to come, that some electric cars will be more expensive to "fuel" than ICE vehicles. Not seen any numbers to confirm this yet.

He’s at it again.

 

[subthree]

Please remember how the electricity is produced for the EVs. In Norway 99% of their electricity is from hydro. In the UK, for the past 12 months, on average 45% of our electricity is produced from fossil fuels. Not a number I have dreamed up, just look on National Grid's website via the link below. If you look at the real-time data then during the day fossil fuels often reach 60-65% and virtually all of this is from gas.

I am not a CO2 denier, consider every journey I make and rarely fly, but in the UK we clearly have a long way to go to reach green electricity generation. Rishi, put PVs on everyone's house.

National Grid: Live

Shows the live status of Great Britain’s electric power transmission network

grid.iamkate.com

 

[soulstyledevon]

Therefore 55% average comes from renewables or green generation. At least it’s a step in the right direction.
Agree, government supported PV with enhanced insulation could help this country in so many ways. Job creation and future energy security, whilst cutting greenhouse emissions.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

Rishi, put PVs on everyone's house.

The government encouraged people to do so by cutting VAT to zero on supply + install in April 22.

They should abolish the government subsidy given to energy companies (ie Drax) for burning green timber. Biomas can only be considered as green if the power plant if it sits next to its fuel source & only burns a sustainable timber. The main reason why household logs have increased in price over the past few years is that many UK forests have sold their timber to Drax, who are able to undercut the market rate with the help of the government subsidy. Drax (& others) are now buying timber from overseas to meet the power demand of their UK plants (that previously ran on coal)

Interesting read (but biased):

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a81b554be42d6b09e19fc09/t/6346b1258ad5f2402cf6ad66/1665577256589/Blue+Orca+Short+Enviva+Inc+%28NYSE+EVA%29.pdf

 

[pjm-84]

To add insult to injury - our gas consumption is low this month - 17therms.

 

[SusiBus]

We have an old fashioned open fire which we have been using for 45 years. Yes I know it's only 15% efficient, but the chimney breast does run up through the centre of the house, so keeps the core of the house warm.
One of our main sources of fuel is wood from builders, either old roof joists, pallets or general scrap.
As this will only be chucked into skips to end up God knows where, hopefully recycled somehow. How does this practice effect our carbon footprint as opposed to using our gas boiler?

 

[larrylamb]

We have an old fashioned open fire which we have been using for 45 years. Yes I know it's only 15% efficient, but the chimney breast does run up through the centre of the house, so keeps the core of the house warm.
One of our main sources of fuel is wood from builders, either old roof joists, pallets or general scrap.
As this will only be chucked into skips to end up God knows where, hopefully recycled somehow. How does this practice effect our carbon footprint as opposed to using our gas boiler?

Swapping your open fire for a woodburner (80%eff.) would be a good start for using less wood and a warmer, less draughty room. Cleaner burn too so less particulates and burning wood is technically carbon neutral. Also safer if you're burning wood liable to spitting.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Enjoy while it last. Once we all switch to electric we'll get the VAT at 20% instead of 5% and the equivalent charge of the 52.95 pence per litre tax applied to a kW of electricity too. Guaranteed we'll never be able to cover 870mile with 20quids. Ealy adopters like you are benefiting at the moment.

In fact current duty and VAT on petrol/diesel is about £1 a litre, an effective tax rate of well over 50% and that raises about £30bn+ a year for the Treasury, IIRC.

However it's hard to see how future governments will be able to transfer that tax take straight onto electricity, given that people will be able to "download" their home supply willy nilly for either home or EV use, and at the same time government wants to incentive electrification of home heating (ie heat pumps) to reduce use of gas and oil boilers.

So I expect some kind of road pricing will need to be used as a way of extracting tax from EV users.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Please remember how the electricity is produced for the EVs. In Norway 99% of their electricity is from hydro. In the UK, for the past 12 months, on average 45% of our electricity is produced from fossil fuels. Not a number I have dreamed up, just look on National Grid's website via the link below. If you look at the real-time data then during the day fossil fuels often reach 60-65% and virtually all of this is from gas.

Those figures are today's but the point is that the carbon intensity of grid electricity has been falling steeply and within about 15 years from now is forecast to be only around a quarter of today's level (depending on exactly which forecast you choose but there's a lot of consensus).

And those peak demand levels that you cite for gas-fired generation are actually a factor of domestic electricity demand during peak hours (mainly evenings when everyone puts the kettle on together at the end of Strictly and Bake Off, not for EV charging which can be easily incentivised to be take place almost entirely overnight through economy night-time tariffs.

Planning assumptions and policies around the switch to EVs need to be based on reasonable future scenarios, not today's. (But in any case, the UK market take-up of EVs is running faster than the government had modelled.)

 

[Calimili]

In fact current duty and VAT on petrol/diesel is about £1 a litre, an effective tax rate of well over 50% and that raises about £30bn+ a year for the Treasury, IIRC.

However it's hard to see how future governments will be able to transfer that tax take straight onto electricity, given that people will be able to "download" their home supply willy nilly for either home or EV use, and at the same time government wants to incentive electrification of home heating (ie heat pumps) to reduce use of gas and oil boilers.

So I expect some kind of road pricing will need to be used as a way of extracting tax from EV users.

I agree. One way or another, moving into EV it will not give a financial advantage. People insist on arguing EVs are cheap to run. But they will not be cheaper once once we all drive EVs.
I am nevertheless under no illusion of being able to convince anyone of this fact, because EVs have become like religion, some people love EVs and won't listen to any other reason, whether it is on the financial side of it, the questionable sourcing of lithium, the unexplained impact of disposing of spent batteries, the CO2 and environmental impact from production of the vehicle to the end of its useful life including that of the batteries, the clean or less clean source of electricity production now and in the future, the current inexistent user practical benefit, especially if we expand the discussion to medium an heavy trucks that cover hundreds of miles daily and whose environmental impact is enormous together to the millions who live in flats and can't charge at home.
I don't dislike EVs at all, I love Teslas, i try to use my Swytch bike for all the journeys I can instead of driving, but rationally I cannot yet prefer EVs to ICE vehicles until all the above will be successfully solved and answered.

 

[RodCouncil]

I agree. One way or another, moving into EV it will not give a financial advantage. People insist on arguing EVs are cheap to run. But they will not be cheaper once once we all drive EVs.
I am nevertheless under no illusion of being able to convince anyone of this fact, because EVs have become like religion, some people love EVs and won't listen to any other reason, whether it is on the financial side of it, the questionable sourcing of lithium, the unexplained impact of disposing of spent batteries, the CO2 and environmental impact from production of the vehicle to the end of its useful life including that of the batteries, the clean or less clean source of electricity production now and in the future, the current inexistent user practical benefit, especially if we expand the discussion to medium an heavy trucks that cover hundreds of miles daily and whose environmental impact is enormous together to the millions who live in flats and can't charge at home.
I don't dislike EVs at all, I love Teslas, i try to use my Swytch bike for all the journeys I can instead of driving, but rationally I cannot yet prefer EVs to ICE vehicles until all the above will be successfully solved and answered.

The EV transition is as much about the automation revolution as it is cost savings and reducing C02, the number of cars will drastically reduce as people move towards shared use approaches and AGI. Remember many new EVs are being used as energy storage so their primary reason for being isn't just transport, I can run the house from the stored solar or off peak electricity taken in the evening via charging.

As for modern Governments taxation, it could be like VD said, based on usage (which is fairer) or a million other ways not connected to the energy source / vehicle at all.

Also the environmental cost of mining Iron and Aluminium is higher than the processing of batteries and way below gas and oil. The application of used car batteries in their 2nd and 3rd life applications such as energy storage is an often overlooked advantage too.

It's a transition and one that will take time, but it's already been decided, your ICE Cali is end of life, ICE BMWs are relics, not my words, but the action of buyers and people younger than us.

 

[willwander]

This was a great thread until it got hijacked by boomers.

 

[pjm-84]

some people love EVs and won't listen to any other reason, whether it is on the financial side of it, the questionable sourcing of lithium, the unexplained impact of disposing of spent batteries, the CO2 and environmental impact from production of the vehicle to the end of its useful life including that of the batteries, the clean or less clean source of electricity production now and in the future, the current inexistent user practical benefit, especially if we expand the discussion to medium an heavy trucks that cover hundreds of miles daily and whose environmental impact is enormous together to the millions who live in flats and can't charge at home.

Because a lot of what you mentioned can be dismissed. The ID3 is carbon neutral at production. But this is offsetting and if people think that you can make a car without offsetting than they need a dose of reality.

A high percentage of electric comes from renewables, and this will increase.

Trucks are moving in the EV direction.

Millions who live in flats will have an allocated parking space on new developments. Those who live in converted houses will not. There is a parking requirements / standards for residential. Just because its flats doesn't mean it can be ignored.

Recycling is pretty much standard industry practice. Google Umicore

 

[GrannyJen]

Well,

I have a love/hate relationship with my EV.

It's expensive, and I'm not daft enough to think I will get that back in savings of any description over ICE.

It's making me lazy, I don't have the same conscience constraints about starting it up to go to the shops that I do with something that will splutter fumes all over the place.

I have range anxiety just thinking about going anywhere with it.

The bit I love though. Independence. Putin, just stop oil, extinction rebellion, tanker drivers strikes, OPEC embargo's, pipelines being blown up ...... I still have transport and every time the sun shines my lovely PV's refuel my car. I can also feel terribly green knowing that the seat covers are made from recycled plastic recovered from ocean waste.

Oh, just an aside: it's also quite lovely to drive .....

 

[Ch1pbutty]

We have an old fashioned open fire which we have been using for 45 years. Yes I know it's only 15% efficient, but the chimney breast does run up through the centre of the house, so keeps the core of the house warm.
One of our main sources of fuel is wood from builders, either old roof joists, pallets or general scrap.
As this will only be chucked into skips to end up God knows where, hopefully recycled somehow. How does this practice effect our carbon footprint as opposed to using our gas boiler?

Try to avoid burning pallets; Heat treated pallets are ok to use as kindling, but you shouldn’t burn the ones treated with chemicals as they can release toxic fumes into the environment. Pallets that have been treated will have a stamp indicating this. The stamp will include the letters HT for heat treated or MB for those that have had the methane bromide treatment.

 

[Calimili]

Try to avoid burning pallets; Heat treated pallets are ok to use as kindling, but you shouldn’t burn the ones treated with chemicals as they can release toxic fumes into the environment. Pallets that have been treated will have a stamp indicating this. The stamp will include the letters HT for heat treated or MB for those that have had the methane bromide treatment.

and with a cost between 5 and 10 per pallet also not that financially advantageous

 

[soulstyledevon]

and with a cost between 5 and 10 per pallet also not that financially advantageous

Unless you manage to pick up a few from work…
They make bloody good kindling. Bed of small cuts in the stove and a lump corner section gets the fire roaring in no time…

 

[soulstyledevon]

As mentioned above.
It’s only a matter of time before pay per mile kicks in.
It’s inevitable and the only fair solution, hopefully with higher costs for shorter journeys. Bit like a sin tax. Sub 5 miles would cost more than sub 30mile trip etc etc…

 

[B J G]

One of the not obvious negatives of EV's is their weight.

This is having an impact on road damage and a polluting effect of high tyre wear rates where the rubber compounds are being washed into drains -rivers- seas-oceans. Plus the increased tyre carcases that need disposal.

 

[RodCouncil]

One of the not obvious negatives of EV's is their weight.

This is having an impact on road damage and a polluting effect of high tyre wear rates where the rubber compounds are being washed into drains -rivers- seas-oceans. Plus the increased tyre carcases that need disposal.

Do you have data on that? my model 3 SR is comparable to a VW Golf and hardly uses it's brakes thanks to motor regen and also seeing comparable tyre wear to my prev Golf, comparing to a 2 ton ICE SUV and EV SUV is probably marginal too.

The number of cars full stop are the issue, less of them is the answer.

 

[pjm-84]

Again.....Google is your friend and reading the whole report not the snippet. Its related to vehicle weights, and excludes tail pipe emission from the PM figure. It notes that par for par its less. But bigger EVs tend to be heavier due to the battery. No different to being a single occupant in the car or having a family of five and a dog.

Note the word suggests

The ID3 for example is soft on tyres At 41k miles we've on our second set of tyres with the rears half worn and fronts at 3mm. Probably manage another 5k miles - So 20 to 25k for fronts? Thats the best I've ever had on a front wheel drive car with 200hp

Particulate matter (PM) exposure has been linked to adverse health effects by numerous studies. Therefore, governments have been heavily incentivising the market to switch to electric passenger cars in order to reduce air pollution.

However, this literature review suggests that electric vehicles may not reduce levels of PM as much as expected, because of their relatively high weight.

By analysing the existing literature on non-exhaust emissions of different vehicle categories, this review found that there is a positive relationship between weight and non-exhaust PM emission factors. In addition, electric vehicles (EVs) were found to be 24% heavier than equivalent internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEVs).

As a result, total PM10 emissions from EVs were found to be equal to those of modern ICEVs. PM2.5 emissions were only 1-3% lower for EVs compared to modern ICEVs.

Therefore, it could be concluded that the increased popularity of electric vehicles will likely not have a great effect on PM levels. Non-exhaust emissions already account for over 90% of PM10 and 85% of PM2.5 emissions from traffic. These proportions will continue to increase as exhaust standards improve and average vehicle weight increases. Future policy should consequently focus on setting standards for non-exhaust emissions and encouraging weight reduction of all vehicles to significantly reduce PM emissions from traffic.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

One of the not obvious negatives of EV's is their weight.

This is having an impact on road damage and a polluting effect of high tyre wear rates where the rubber compounds are being washed into drains -rivers- seas-oceans. Plus the increased tyre carcases that need disposal.

VW Cali is super lightweight at just over 3t.

EV’s create less pollution from brake wear dust (residual metal compound) as a lot of the braking is done using the electric motor instead, small amount of saved energy also then goes back into the battery…so they do have some advantages + your brake pads/discs don’t need changing as often.

 

[RodCouncil]

This is the problem we need to solve

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585326026514743315

 

[Ch1pbutty]

This is the problem we need to solve

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1585326026514743315

Especially if you want to encourage parents to let their kids cycle to school.

 

[SusiBus]

Swapping your open fire for a woodburner (80%eff.) would be a good start for using less wood and a warmer, less draughty room. Cleaner burn too so less particulates and burning wood is technically carbon neutral. Also safer if you're burning wood liable to spitting.

I know a woodburner would make a lot of sense with regard to efficiency and hence the environment, but could l continue burning old roof timbers and general builders waste wood?