VW confirms plans for ID California electric camper van

[Wildcamper]

"Batteries have a short life span, at present. The cost of regular replacement will be huge."

I think Tesla reckon their batteries are good for 300,000-500,000 miles (I'm assuming they've done extended testing like most car manufacturers), so that's plenty of life for most people. And around 10% degradation per 100,000 miles. A new battery is of the order of £10k (vs the £7k for a new 180 engine). Engines lose hp and efficiency over time too.

Tesla have provided no peer reviewed technical data to support their claim. I have, and work with, a number of battery technology developers - none believe their claim. The engine on an old 1.8 BMW of mine exhibited no loss in performance over 500,000 miles - measured by BMW and compared to as new performance data.

 

[GollyOlly]

They’ll be loads more by then. If there’s money to be made out of chargers, people will build them. Shell have just built an entire “petrol station” in Fulham for EVs. They’ll be under pressure to decarbonise from investors, so will push into things like that.
( And I never said it’s convenient now, it’s a pain. But so is camping in a Cali with 5 of us, and we still do that).

What happens to the EV batteries when they no longer power the car? Are they recycled? I agree, we need to move away from fossil fuels but the carbon footprint to generate electricity is HUGE; much larger than the utilisation of the fossil fuel itself. Check out why electric boilers, while more efficient (99-100%) than gas boilers, have a lower EPC rating because it takes more energy to generate electricity than it does to buy and burn fossil fuels. So, if everyone moves to electric, unless everyone has renewable energy sources such as solar PV cells on their homes AND storage batteries, they are reliant on the energy companies to generate electricity to power the EVs. And how does the grid generate electricity? Currently it comes primarily from fossil fuel and that will not change in the near future. So, the government cannot meet the demands of electricity requirements with the push for the public to buy EVs and the only way to do that is generate more electricity; i.e. burn more fossil fuel. Another disadvantage not advertised by auto companies is the battery management system and the degradation rate of the electric battery. VW batteries were degrading at 8% per year, so along with the reduction in battery power, the range reduces as well. Tesla batteries performed the best with a 1-2% reduction per year. But at 8% per year under normal conditions, that means the battery needs to be changed at about 12 years. Tesla battery changeouts cost IRO £20,000. Under cold climate conditions, battery degradation accelerates in the long term. In the short term, range diminishes, so any trip needs to take into account ambient temperature.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

Majority of the car gets recycled, same as ICE vehicles.

UK's current prime source of energy is from renewables:


Why would you need to replace a Tesla battery after 12 year, for a 12/24% drop in capacity over the period. ie - range was originally 300miles, so drop to 264/228miles . The car is still of use, just needs a charge more often. Performance of the car should be the same.
Agree not good sense to buy a VAG EV if its true that they lose 8% capacity per year, otherwise you might as well just camp on your driveway as it gets older.

Just received below from our local council, so would expect similar across UK soon:

West Sussex EV Chargepoint Network | Connected Kerb

West Sussex welcomes new electric vehicle charging points! Explore the expanding network and be a part of the region's sustainability mobility revolution.

www.connectedkerb.com

But we are still keeping our Cali!..

 

[GollyOlly]

Majority of the car gets recycled, same as ICE vehicles.

UK's current prime source of energy is from renewables:

View attachment 89085
Why would you need to replace a Tesla battery after 12 year, for a 12/24% drop in capacity over the period. ie - range was originally 300miles, so drop to 264/228miles . The car is still of use, just needs a charge more often. Performance of the car should be the same.
Agree not good sense to buy a VAG EV if its true that they lose 8% capacity per year, otherwise you might as well just camp on your driveway as it gets older.

Just received below from our local council, so would expect similar across UK soon:

West Sussex EV Chargepoint Network | Connected Kerb

West Sussex welcomes new electric vehicle charging points! Explore the expanding network and be a part of the region's sustainability mobility revolution.

www.connectedkerb.com

But we are still keeping our Cali!..

Agree, you shouldn't need to replace the Tesla after 12 years. Although a guy in Finland ended up blowing up his Tesla S when he was handed a $21000 bill for a battery replacement on a 7 year old car! But generally, Tesla the only EV with a decent battery. It's just if you need to ever replace it, they're expensive. The only point I was making was that before buying any EV, check the battery management, do your research and don't believe necessarily what's printed on the range because it fluctuates with age of the battery and temperature.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

Majority of the car gets recycled, same as ICE vehicles.

UK's current prime source of energy is from renewables:

View attachment 89085
Why would you need to replace a Tesla battery after 12 year, for a 12/24% drop in capacity over the period. ie - range was originally 300miles, so drop to 264/228miles . The car is still of use, just needs a charge more often. Performance of the car should be the same.
Agree not good sense to buy a VAG EV if its true that they lose 8% capacity per year, otherwise you might as well just camp on your driveway as it gets older.

Just received below from our local council, so would expect similar across UK soon:

West Sussex EV Chargepoint Network | Connected Kerb

West Sussex welcomes new electric vehicle charging points! Explore the expanding network and be a part of the region's sustainability mobility revolution.

www.connectedkerb.com

But we are still keeping our Cali!..

……. and as we all know there’s loads of R&D on battery technologies these days. I’d expect EVs to be fitted with batteries with much more range and a shorter recharging cycle by the latter half of this decade when the electric Cali hits the streets.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

FFS!…whatever next:

Bizarre accessory turns Tesla Cybertruck into amphibious boat

A Seattle-based engineer has designed a set of add-ons that would convert Tesla's Cybertruck, an electric pickup, into a catamaran. The 'Cybercat'

marineindustrynews.co.uk

 

[vananarama]

That's it, I'm going electric! In 2035.

 

[ardm17]

Energy crisis: Electric car owners to give power to National Grid

BRITAIN'S energy crisis is given a helping hand through a trial that will draw power from parked cars at times of low supply or high demand.

www.express.co.uk

So you come out to your electric Cali in the morning to go to work and find that all of your neighbours have boiled a kettle and made some toast and you have no charge left ....

 

[Wildcamper]

Energy crisis: Electric car owners to give power to National Grid

BRITAIN'S energy crisis is given a helping hand through a trial that will draw power from parked cars at times of low supply or high demand.

www.express.co.uk

So you come out to your electric Cali in the morning to go to work and find that all of your neighbours have boiled a kettle and made some toast and you have no charge left ....

Whatever next!

 

[Mr B]

Whatever next!

It's certainly an interesting idea.

Electric Car batteries are good at storing energy and releasing it and most of the time the energy is not being used.

For example, this video is quite interesting showing how much cheaper it is to buy a Ford F-150 Lightning Pro to run your energy needs in your house - rather than a traditional Tesla Powerwall.

That channel also has loads of explainers about whether Electric cars are better for the environment than ICE cars... All proven with math.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=engineering+explained+electric+vs+gas+c02

As for an electric camper - I would definetly buy one. But certainly not the first model that is released.

VW haven't impressed me yet with their ID range... really far behind Tesla - and their new ID cars don't even have features that Tesla had 7 years ago.

I really hope someone else (Tesla plz) makes an alternative to the electric camper.

 

[Wildcamper]

It's certainly an interesting idea.

Electric Car batteries are good at storing energy and releasing it and most of the time the energy is not being used.

For example, this video is quite interesting showing how much cheaper it is to buy a Ford F-150 Lightning Pro to run your energy needs in your house - rather than a traditional Tesla Powerwall.

That channel also has loads of explainers about whether Electric cars are better for the environment than ICE cars... All proven with math.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=engineering+explained+electric+vs+gas+c02

As for an electric camper - I would definetly buy one. But certainly not the first model that is released.

VW haven't impressed me yet with their ID range... really far behind Tesla - and their new ID cars don't even have features that Tesla had 7 years ago.

I really hope someone else (Tesla plz) makes an alternative to the electric camper.

Unfortunately the math is somewhere between wrong and contrived. On materials he misses out the environmental disaster of mining cobalt and especially neodymium. Electric cars do make some sense for inner city use and they are lovely to drive. However, I have no intention of purchasing one in the foreseeable future - unless compelled. I see EVs as part of a transport revolution along side clean ICE vehicles.

 

[Mr B]

Unfortunately the math is somewhere between wrong and contrived. On materials he misses out the environmental disaster of mining cobalt and especially neodymium. Electric cars do make some sense for inner city use and they are lovely to drive. However, I have no intention of purchasing one in the foreseeable future - unless compelled. I see EVs as part of a transport revolution along side clean ICE vehicles.

Ok thanks. I'll let him know.

I also noticed he misses out on the environmental costs of burning and transporting fossil fuels.

It's almost like he didn't include those things on purpose.

 

[Wildcamper]

Ok thanks. I'll let him know.

I also noticed he misses out on the environmental costs of burning and transporting fossil fuels.

It's almost like he didn't include those things on purpose.

You are correct. What he has shown is a simplistic mathematical model. If one is going to use MMs then one has to make sure ALL the variables are included, like them or not. If all variables are not included, as in this case in my opinion, then one has "garbage in garbage out". So yes, include the items you mentioned plus all the mining negatives. Only that way will a real answer be even close, and even that assumes there are no "unknown unknowns", which there will be. Mathematical models are very dangerous if not meticulously constructed.

 

[B J G]

I was a bit surprised when a Tesla Owner was trying to impress me that he was fully informed of the vehicles progress from order point.

Built in China (with it's fossil derived energy) then shipped all the way to Birmingham UK. Starting his ownership with quite a large Footprint I thought at the time.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

I was a bit surprised when a Tesla Owner was trying to impress me that he was fully informed of the vehicles progress from order point.

Built in China (with it's fossil derived energy) then shipped all the way to Birmingham UK. Starting his ownership with quite a large Footprint I thought at the time.

No different from any other car manufacturers; Majority of raw materials / parts all come in via sea anyway.

The vessels in which they are carried will have been burning low sulphur fuel, or, small minority will be fitted with exhaust scrubbers but still burning high sulphur fuel (Similar to VW Adblue setup).

Once scrapped all ICE / EV also go out via sea using ‘fossil derived energy’ and are recycled in a different countries (photo Liverpool, scrap being loaded for discharge once in the USA):






The Tesla factory in China has a roof constructed from solar panels to help offset emissions from manufacturing; Tesla factory in Germany should finally go ahead soon:

Tesla, authorities submit documents for German plant approval

Tesla and relevant authorities have submitted all the documents necessary for the approval process for its planned factory near Berlin, the environment ministry of the German state of Brandenburg said on Wednesday.

www.reuters.com

The Tesla owner probably had an 8 week wait from ordering until the car was delivered to his front door. Meanwhile VW were still waiting 8 weeks for a chip to be delivered from China to the factory in Germany in order that they could continue production!

 

[Mr B]

You are correct. What he has shown is a simplistic mathematical model. If one is going to use MMs then one has to make sure ALL the variables are included, like them or not. If all variables are not included, as in this case in my opinion, then one has "garbage in garbage out". So yes, include the items you mentioned plus all the mining negatives. Only that way will a real answer be even close, and even that assumes there are no "unknown unknowns", which there will be. Mathematical models are very dangerous if not meticulously constructed.

Yeah, unknown unknowns are bad.

You cannot rely on anything that doesn't consider them fully.

I'd love to see your calculations, especially accounting for unknown unknowns.

Be quite an eye opener for sure I'd imagine and probably used to further our knowledge more fully in any field.

 

[clarinetbcn]

I was a bit surprised when a Tesla Owner was trying to impress me that he was fully informed of the vehicles progress from order point.

Built in China (with it's fossil derived energy) then shipped all the way to Birmingham UK. Starting his ownership with quite a large Footprint I thought at the time.

Right?! Pretty much everything we consume, from PPE to condoms to TVs are made in China. When I was a child it was illegal to sell products in the US that weren’t made by workers with the same protections US workers legally had. How far we have fallen, basically all the west’s child labor laws have been repealed, because manufacturers can just go to places where it is legal to exploit child labor, and then sell their products without problems in countries where people died fighting to stop this. Who, I wonder, profits from this, and who let it happen. We’re told we’re lucky to have almost unlimited cheap stuff available, but nobody tells you that you will lose your job and your children will be poorer that you. I agree with you, it should stop.

 

[Corradobrit]

Right?! Pretty much everything we consume, from PPE to condoms to TVs are made in China. When I was a child it was illegal to sell products in the US that weren’t made by workers with the same protections US workers legally had. How far we have fallen, basically all the west’s child labor laws have been repealed, because manufacturers can just go to places where it is legal to exploit child labor, and then sell their products without problems in countries where people died fighting to stop this. Who, I wonder, profits from this, and who let it happen. We’re told we’re lucky to have almost unlimited cheap stuff available, but nobody tells you that you will lose your job and your children will be poorer that you. I agree with you, it should stop.

Its not difficult finding equivalent products made in other countries than China. I buy PPE from Germany, a lot of condoms are made in Malaysia (not unsurprising given the latex is harvested there), and TV's from Japan. I consciously avoid as much as possible from China like clothing but some are unavoidable if you're an Apple fanboi.

 

[R_Sargeant_CH]

Tesla have provided no peer reviewed technical data to support their claim. I have, and work with, a number of battery technology developers - none believe their claim. The engine on an old 1.8 BMW of mine exhibited no loss in performance over 500,000 miles - measured by BMW and compared to as new performance data.

Not true. There are several Tesla owners groups that are monitoring battery capacities on an ongoing basis. Teslas are permanently connected to the Internet, so it's possible to write apps that give access. Of course, the owners have to install the apps, log in to their cars and opt to share that data, but the capacity/life of hundreds if not thousands of Tesla batteries is freely available. If that's not a peer review, I don't know what is.
Many Teslas are now past the 8 year battery warranty. Looking at the graphs, very few are under 95% of their original capacity.
By the way, since you mention BMW, BMW i3 batteries are showing similar longevity.

 

[R_Sargeant_CH]

Not true. There are several Tesla owners groups that are monitoring battery capacities on an ongoing basis. Teslas are permanently connected to the Internet, so it's possible to write apps that give access. Of course, the owners have to install the apps, log in to their cars and opt to share that data, but the capacity/life of hundreds if not thousands of Tesla batteries is freely available. If that's not a peer review, I don't know what is.
Many Teslas are now past the 8 year battery warranty. Looking at the graphs, very few are under 95% of their original capacity.
By the way, since you mention BMW, BMW i3 batteries are showing similar longevity.

Here's an example of one of those graphs. OK, I accept it's just a graph from the Internet, but if you do your own search, you can verify the information. And yes, I said "95%" above. It's closer to 90%. I was posting from memory.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

Here's an example of one of those graphs. OK, I accept it's just a graph from the Internet, but if you do your own search, you can verify the information. And yes, I said "95%" above. It's closer to 90%. I was posting from memory.

View attachment 89266

If accurate these are quite impressive numbers and they’ll potentially improve further with advances in battery technology.

 

[GeorgeandAnne]

I think it’s living in Lincolnshire where luxury infrastructure like hospitals and buses are sparse, average wages are low, solar panels are destroying wildlife corridors and nuclear waste is being buried, but I’m not sure that EV is anything but a sop to cities.

Like how when you visit Hertfordshire, you can’t throw a brick but hit a former or current “waste disposal site”. All the back-end damage and pollution from the cities is hidden from view. Maintaining a sense that choosing to be greener is improving overall environmental impact, because the cities are cleaner. But it’s just not. It’s just being pushed out to poorer areas, away from view.

So I’m not keen on EV on principle, as I’m sure when it becomes really popular, those of us in the sticks will be subject to rolling blackouts as the grid is drained by people leaving their car charging and then nipping round the corner for a pint of milk, (which isn’t the spirit. I’m also deeply distrustful of the sheer volume of electrics, and wireless devices that are needed to fitted as well. That’s a LOT to go wrong.

I’m all for diesel these days, (I didn’t use to be), as I think in the long run it’ll turn out to be cleaner, more reliable and lower impact. Which isn’t to deny its impact. But Diesel engines on cars and buses are not what they were in my childhood.

And I’ll never forget the meme I saw of (I think it was TfL’s) EV buses being charged by a diesel generator. Sort of sums it up. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. It’s actually a very good and durable philosophy and so much more useful than lining someone’s pockets to make something even more long-run damaging than the original product.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ozzy Pete]

I think it’s living in Lincolnshire where luxury infrastructure like hospitals and buses are sparse, average wages are low, solar panels are destroying wildlife corridors and nuclear waste is being buried, but I’m not sure that EV is anything but a sop to cities.

Like how when you visit Hertfordshire, you can’t throw a brick but hit a former or current “waste disposal site”. All the back-end damage and pollution from the cities is hidden from view. Maintaining a sense that choosing to be greener is improving overall environmental impact, because the cities are cleaner. But it’s just not. It’s just being pushed out to poorer areas, away from view.

So I’m not keen on EV on principle, as I’m sure when it becomes really popular, those of us in the sticks will be subject to rolling blackouts as the grid is drained by people leaving their car charging and then nipping round the corner for a pint of milk, (which isn’t the spirit. I’m also deeply distrustful of the sheer volume of electrics, and wireless devices that are needed to fitted as well. That’s a LOT to go wrong.

I’m all for diesel these days, (I didn’t use to be), as I think in the long run it’ll turn out to be cleaner, more reliable and lower impact. Which isn’t to deny its impact. But Diesel engines on cars and buses are not what they were in my childhood.

And I’ll never forget the meme I saw of (I think it was TfL’s) EV buses being charged by a diesel generator. Sort of sums it up. Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. It’s actually a very good and durable philosophy and so much more useful than lining someone’s pockets to make something even more long-run damaging than the original product.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with you, inevitably when you put all your eggs in the one basket something goes tits up. If we are going to rely on materials from Countries like China and Russia we are going down the same slippery slope as what’s happening now with energy and oil.
We never learn from our previous mistakes. Even if in the short term it’s going to cost more we can’t carry on relying on other countries for our energy....

 

[clarinetbcn]

We never learn from our previous mistakes. Even if in the short term it’s going to cost more we can’t carry on relying on other countries for our energy....

That’s why Germany has added a surcharge to electric bills to finance the transition to a range of renewables, and away from nuclear that leaves toxic nuclear waste that lasts over two hundred times the length of time since the birth of Christ, but one German resident on this forum has complained about the price rise, so obviously not everyone is on board.

 

[Ozzy Pete]

That’s why Germany has added a surcharge to electric bills to finance the transition to a range of renewables, and away from nuclear that leaves toxic nuclear waste that lasts over two hundred times the length of time since the birth of Christ, but one German resident on this forum has complained about the price rise, so obviously not everyone is on board.

So an increase of 53% in Electricity prices in one go is not enough?
People in the UK find it hard enough to pay the recent increase without another one which is due in October. We don’t need our government to screw us any more we have OFGEM to do that for us.