Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[turnitdown]

Was speaking with a sales rep at Liverpool VW today as I'm looking to buy. I asked about the bellows issue and he must have said about 6 times while replying that bellows are 'water resistant' only, they never were, aren't supposed to be, and never will be waterproof. Hmm. Okay. Not impressed with that nonsense frankly.

We can think of it this way:

Either

We are incompetent, in that we design/spec a pop top roof without designing/speccing that it be waterproof.

OR

We are incompetent, in that we have no QA process for ensuring that products designed/specced to be waterproof actually are.

 

[Andy C Berks.]

Was speaking with a sales rep at Liverpool VW today as I'm looking to buy. I asked about the bellows issue and he must have said about 6 times while replying that bellows are 'water resistant' only, they never were, aren't supposed to be, and never will be waterproof. Hmm. Okay. Not impressed with that nonsense frankly.

We can think of it this way:

Either

We are incompetent, in that we design/spec a pop top roof without designing/speccing that it be waterproof.

OR

We are incompetent, in that we have no QA process for ensuring that products designed/specced to be waterproof actually are.

Bought mine from there. We’re great during the sales process, of course. But when less than a month after delivery (June 23) it leaked really badly and I complained the immediate and repeated response from them was the roof is only supposed to be showerproof. So gave up on them.

 

[markbrown83]

The irony is Chris says in one of his YouTube videos that the pop top is water proof.

 

[Jeckmacdonald]

I'm really sorry to hear your news.

VW must surely be at the point where they put a hold on replacing any more bellows until they change the design or sort out the manufacturing issues.

At the very least they should be offering you a significant goodwill gesture to recognise the amount of your time they have wasted. And I would be pushing them to supply you with a free topper that you can use in bad weather until they are confident they have a solution.

Finally I would be insisting they give you approval to use Fabsil or Aqua Tex as an interim solution, again until they can fix the design/manufacture.

Thank you this is really good advice

 

[TrevorH]

Thank you this is really good advice

After you gave up on Liverpool Andy C how did you sort?

 

[Andy C Berks.]

After you gave up on Liverpool Andy C how did you sort?

I used Marshall’s in Reading which is far more convenient - albeit the first replacement didn’t go to plan as they replaced 03S with 03S (when they advised it would be 04S) but that was fairly quickly remedied with a swap out to 04S. Wasn’t ideal but both replacements were booked in easily enough and without the need for supplemental round trips for testing, they were convinced enough by the pics and videos I had taken ! In short, they understand the issue and didn’t try to dodge it. Been pretty decent when ordered parts too.

 

[CampervanFlattie]

Bought mine from there. We’re great during the sales process, of course. But when less than a month after delivery (June 23) it leaked really badly and I complained the immediate and repeated response from them was the roof is only supposed to be showerproof. So gave up on them.

Ditto
we ended up using NWales VW who eventually replaced the bellows.

 

[Camperfamily]

Coincidentally, I’ve now had a reply from the exec office. So despite being the one to raise the notion of brand new a M1A, they know nothing useful about it. Given that dealers don’t know anything about it (so far), this all appears to be a case of not knowing one’s arse from their elbow.

‘For technical responses this needs to be spoken about with the Retailer.

Unfortunately its not something I can deal with, if you call your retailer and ask them they should be able to answer any questions you may have.’

I think we just need sufficient volume of 04S failures to move this on, as per last year with the 03S.

Could it be that Adrian left a note saying “MIA” and his colleague just misread it?


Sorry, I couldn’t resist trying to lighten up this thread… if it’s any consolation, I have a set of 04S bellows (with A sticker) which I’ve not yet exposed to the elements - only used with a Pucer cover so far for insulation qualities.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Was speaking with a sales rep at Liverpool VW today as I'm looking to buy. I asked about the bellows issue and he must have said about 6 times while replying that bellows are 'water resistant' only, they never were, aren't supposed to be, and never will be waterproof. Hmm. Okay. Not impressed with that nonsense frankly.

I wonder if there's any possible rejection issue if the dealer you're purchasing from tells you they're not waterproof before entering into a contract to purchase? If they're making you aware of the specification, does that undermine your ability to complain and/or reject it at a later date?

The irony is Chris says in one of his YouTube videos that the pop top is water proof.

Pretty sure Chris moved to Wrexham (or somewhere other than Liverpool) a while back, unless I've misread something somewhere?

 

[CamperFam]

Pretty sure Chris moved to Wrexham (or somewhere other than Liverpool) a while back, unless I've misread something somewhere?

He has, but still does videos at Liverpool because they're a leisure dealer.

 

[derik103013]

I have being also speaking to Adrian's stand in, Rhiannon I think she is called as much as we are all on the fence regarding the M1A I do think she is going above and beyond after being thrown in the deep end. I have gotten more responses from her than I ever had Adrian I have faith she will do her up most best. Just fingers crossed there's more news but I told her on the phone I will give her a 10 out of 10 for her efforts so far. I have a cover now thanks to VW so I will use that until I know what is happening

 

[markbrown83]

I have being also speaking to Adrian's stand in, Rhiannon I think she is called as much as we are all on the fence regarding the M1A I do think she is going above and beyond after being thrown in the deep end. I have gotten more responses from her than I ever had Adrian I have faith she will do her up most best. Just fingers crossed there's more news but I told her on the phone I will give her a 10 out of 10 for her efforts so far. I have a cover now thanks to VW so I will use that until I know what is happening

Just bear in mind that she has just started, she's maybe only dealing with a handful of cases.

I'm sure her workload will increase in the coming months and her ability to respond quickly will decrease.

Take advantage of her availability while you can.

 

[derik103013]

Just bear in mind that she has just started, she's maybe only dealing with a handful of cases.

I'm sure her workload will increase in the coming months and her ability to respond quickly will decrease.

Take advantage of her availability while you can.

I had a really good chat with her, she's been on the company years and is taking over Adrian. I'm not going to slate her when she's is trying her best been thrown in the deep end. So far she has gone above and beyond for me and I know its not entirely her fault been thrown down the saga of these issues. We will see but so far she seems hard working.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

I wonder if there's any possible rejection issue if the dealer you're purchasing from tells you they're not waterproof before entering into a contract to purchase? If they're making you aware of the specification, does that undermine your ability to complain and/or reject it at a later date?

It's certainly not helpful.

They wouldn't get my money.

 

[markbrown83]

I had a really good chat with her, she's been on the company years and is taking over Adrian. I'm not going to slate her when she's is trying her best been thrown in the deep end. So far she has gone above and beyond for me and I know its not entirely her fault been thrown down the saga of these issues. We will see but so far she seems hard working.

When I say just started, I meant in Adrian's role.

I wasn't slating her, I'm just saying that she's likely to get get more busy with time.

 

[Pegsinho]

Was speaking with a sales rep at Liverpool VW today as I'm looking to buy. I asked about the bellows issue and he must have said about 6 times while replying that bellows are 'water resistant' only, they never were, aren't supposed to be, and never will be waterproof. Hmm. Okay. Not impressed with that nonsense frankly.

We can think of it this way:

Either

We are incompetent, in that we design/spec a pop top roof without designing/speccing that it be waterproof.

OR

We are incompetent, in that we have no QA process for ensuring that products designed/specced to be waterproof actually are.

During our purchase process we visited two dealers, and I asked both of them specifically about the leaking bellows issue. One of them said "that was earlier T6.1s only and is sorted" and the other said "there was a bad batch but I haven't seen one for several months".

I didn't believe either of them but I've taken the view that if mine is leaky, I am not against using some sort of waterproofing agent since it seems to do the job and I intend to keep the van long term (not tested yet).

Imagine selling a tent with the caveat that it's not waterproof. You'd go out of business very quickly in this country!

 

[myvanrodney]

I have being also speaking to Adrian's stand in, Rhiannon I think she is called as much as we are all on the fence regarding the M1A I do think she is going above and beyond after being thrown in the deep end. I have gotten more responses from her than I ever had Adrian I have faith she will do her up most best. Just fingers crossed there's more news but I told her on the phone I will give her a 10 out of 10 for her efforts so far. I have a cover now thanks to VW so I will use that until I know what is happening

Which cover did you get?

 

[This_one_goes_to_eleven]

Which cover did you get?

Whilst you are not asking me - I got a Pucer. Really really easy for me to get in and off.

Do have an unused comfortz full topper which VW sent me but reckon it will be more of a gaff to putt on. Can do the icier myself in 2 mins. ( I’m tall though )

 

[markbrown83]

Hmm just watched Jonny's T7 Cali video.

He states that the pop top is the same as the T6 version but I feel he meant T6.1.

At 10 min 20secs.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

Hmm just watched Jonny's T7 Cali video.

He states that the pop top is the same as the T6 version but I feel he meant T6.1.

At 10 min 20secs.

I watched this video and thought the very same, they do look very similar to the current offending bellows which I had in my Cali......

 

[Betsycalifornia]

I sense a theme emerging amongst dealers.
Took my leaking bellows (along with the van) into Listers Droitwich for testing yesterday. Got it back today. Yep it leaks. Well I knew that.

Service department has said “they all do a little” “ they’re not waterproof”.
A little. Crikey it was like a sieve. All on video which they have. I’ve changed my mind on how good listers are now.

Well that set me off. Shame it took so long to decide that and funny that the first time within 30 days of purchase they leaked and were replaced.
Oddly these were miles better but failed when rain was persistent on the front bellows window.
Time to see what VWExec think of that.

 

[Blackbrogue1962]

Just to add my recent experience on this long running saga. I have a T6.1 collected from Eurovan in Crawley in Jan and fitted with the 04S awning. Salesperson was quite open about the issue of leaking bellows and assured me that any problem would be seals with under warranty. Early use of the bellows in Jan - Mar didn’t show any leaks but not seriously tested. Decided to Aquatex the seams following discussion on this thread. Shortly after the bellows had a really good test in very windy and wet weather sat on a hillside CL nest Whitby, 4 or 5 beads of water on horizontal seams exposed to the worst of the wind were noticeable but none developed into a stream and there was no pooling of water. The next real test was last week during a heavy thunderstorm in France, torrential rain but little wind and absolutely no leaks. My conclusion is that my 04S bellows are fit for purpose with the addition of Aquatex. Its also clear that the bellows could never be described as waterproof, as I’ve pointed out previously the manual states the material has a hydrostatic head of 300mm which is way lower than any tent flysheet which would be at least >1500mm. The construction of the bellows with windows, vents and multiple zips all suggest as weather-proof lifestyle product rather than something designed to be 100% waterproof. Perhaps a bit like comparing a Barbour jacket to a Goretex Pro 4 season jacket.

 

[flying banana]

Just to add my recent experience on this long running saga. I have a T6.1 collected from Eurovan in Crawley in Jan and fitted with the 04S awning. Salesperson was quite open about the issue of leaking bellows and assured me that any problem would be seals with under warranty. Early use of the bellows in Jan - Mar didn’t show any leaks but not seriously tested. Decided to Aquatex the seams following discussion on this thread. Shortly after the bellows had a really good test in very windy and wet weather sat on a hillside CL nest Whitby, 4 or 5 beads of water on horizontal seams exposed to the worst of the wind were noticeable but none developed into a stream and there was no pooling of water. The next real test was last week during a heavy thunderstorm in France, torrential rain but little wind and absolutely no leaks. My conclusion is that my 04S bellows are fit for purpose with the addition of Aquatex. Its also clear that the bellows could never be described as waterproof, as I’ve pointed out previously the manual states the material has a hydrostatic head of 300mm which is way lower than any tent flysheet which would be at least >1500mm. The construction of the bellows with windows, vents and multiple zips all suggest as weather-proof lifestyle product rather than something designed to be 100% waterproof. Perhaps a bit like comparing a Barbour jacket to a Goretex Pro 4 season jacket.

unlike the old ones then.a quick google says mimimum hydrostatic head of 1000mm is needed to keep you dry in a rain shower and is ok for desert camping. a hydro head of 300mm is terrible,you may as well make the canvas from an old cardigan. that is utter bullsh1t sales man talk. 300mm is used for sun shades for crying out loud

 

[Andy C Berks.]

Just to add my recent experience on this long running saga. I have a T6.1 collected from Eurovan in Crawley in Jan and fitted with the 04S awning. Salesperson was quite open about the issue of leaking bellows and assured me that any problem would be seals with under warranty. Early use of the bellows in Jan - Mar didn’t show any leaks but not seriously tested. Decided to Aquatex the seams following discussion on this thread. Shortly after the bellows had a really good test in very windy and wet weather sat on a hillside CL nest Whitby, 4 or 5 beads of water on horizontal seams exposed to the worst of the wind were noticeable but none developed into a stream and there was no pooling of water. The next real test was last week during a heavy thunderstorm in France, torrential rain but little wind and absolutely no leaks. My conclusion is that my 04S bellows are fit for purpose with the addition of Aquatex. Its also clear that the bellows could never be described as waterproof, as I’ve pointed out previously the manual states the material has a hydrostatic head of 300mm which is way lower than any tent flysheet which would be at least >1500mm. The construction of the bellows with windows, vents and multiple zips all suggest as weather-proof lifestyle product rather than something designed to be 100% waterproof. Perhaps a bit like comparing a Barbour jacket to a Goretex Pro 4 season jacket.

I suppose the fact that the pop top has a solid roof and therefore it’s only the vertical sides that are material means that they can get away with a lower hydrostatic head, as you won’t get water pooling. In turn that probably means the material is more breathable ? The seams will always be the weak points, and presumably there is a reason they don't/can’t tape them. Hence does seem a bit odd that they don’t treat the seams.
I bought a can of Aquatex but haven’t used it yet - also haven’t had any leaks in my 04S yet - and have to say I am increasingly tempted to use the Aquatex rather than wait for the proverbial rainy day (pun intended).

 

[lohr500]

I suppose the fact that the pop top has a solid roof and therefore it’s only the vertical sides that are material means that they can get away with a lower hydrostatic head, as you won’t get water pooling. In turn that probably means the material is more breathable ? The seams will always be the weak points, and presumably there is a reason they don't/can’t tape them. Hence does seem a bit odd that they don’t treat the seams.
I bought a can of Aquatex but haven’t used it yet - also haven’t had any leaks in my 04S yet - and have to say I am increasingly tempted to use the Aquatex rather than wait for the proverbial rainy day (pun intended).

The instructions for the Aquatex states : The fabric to be treated should be free of dirt, grease and grime. If necessary, wash with warm water. On no account should soap powder or detergent be used.

On that basis, I would be applying the Aquatex sooner, rather than later, whilst the bellows are still new and not in need of a clean.

My bellows leaked on the first outing in the rain, so I used Aquatex at a very early stage. It stopped the leaks and we haven't had any since despite several exposures to reasonably strong rain and wind.