Is the GC a fail?

[Barry Chuckle]

I've seen the Sven Hedin mentioned in this and other threads, and it seems to be a much coveted van! My question is what makes this so special, I know Westfalia are very highly regarded converters but on the assumption you can pick a GC up for c£70k and the SH I'm seeing are priced at near £100k, what do you get for the extra £30k, if anything?

 

[oliver100]

I've seen the Sven Hedin mentioned in this and other threads, and it seems to be a much coveted van! My question is what makes this so special, I know Westfalia are very highly regarded converters but on the assumption you can pick a GC up for c£70k and the SH I'm seeing are priced at near £100k, what do you get for the extra £30k, if anything?

They are lovely things and very well thought out but not worth 30k extra in my opinion especially as the base vans are generally lower spec than even a base GC. They were completely out of the question for us as they were too expensive and also only 2 berth, but the build quality of the habitation area was exceptional and I could totally get why a couple who could afford it would want one.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

They are lovely things and very well thought out but not worth 30k extra in my opinion especially as the base vans are generally lower spec than even a base GC. They were completely out of the question for us as they were too expensive and also only 2 berth, but the build quality of the habitation area was exceptional and I could totally get why a couple who could afford it would want one.

That's really interesting, I've just watched a video of it and it does look very nice indeed. Whilst I understand the economics of mainstream car manufacturers as they all generally follow the same trends I have little or no knowledge of specialist vehicles as they are so niche. But as a matter of interest if the SH was only say £10k more would it have got your order over the GC? And did you not try to get a discount of Westfalia or whoever sells them?

 

[oliver100]

That's really interesting, I've just watched a video of it and it does look very nice indeed. Whilst I understand the economics of mainstream car manufacturers as they all generally follow the same trends I have little or no knowledge of specialist vehicles as they are so niche. But as a matter of interest if the SH was only say £10k more would it have got your order over the GC? And did you not try to get a discount of Westfalia or whoever sells them?

We needed 4 berth so it was totally ruled out and as far as I’m aware they are made to order and such low volume that discount is not an option and therefore residuals are strong for those who can afford them. If they did a 4 berth option with the front seat bed they offer in the ducato base and the price was this side of 90k I would have seriously considered one over a gc as the garage was more practical for our multiple bike carrying needs. As it stands I’m not dissappointed with the GC in the slightest, most of my trepidation at buying one was based on all the negativity they get when in reality now we have lived with it the gc is a great van in its own right, not perfect but much better than 99% of the other similar sized stuff we looked at for our needs.

People compare it to a normal Cali and then massive motorhomes and pick holes from both sides, but for us currently it’s the perfect compromise

 

[soulstyledevon]

I've seen the Sven Hedin mentioned in this and other threads, and it seems to be a much coveted van! My question is what makes this so special, I know Westfalia are very highly regarded converters but on the assumption you can pick a GC up for c£70k and the SH I'm seeing are priced at near £100k, what do you get for the extra £30k, if anything?

If they did one with a Poptop, I would consider one.
Unfortunately, only two birth. Even compared to Hymer vans, the Westfalia was another £20k. Don’t get me wrong, very nice with some well thought out options. But £20k over the price of a Hymer van…

 

[GrannyJen]

If they did one with a Poptop, I would seriously one.
Unfortunately, only two birth. Even compared to Hymer vans, the Westfalia was another £20k. Don’t get me wrong, very nice with some well thought out options. But £20k over the price of a Hymer van…

Especially when it offers nothing different. The recline on the upright two passenger seats is nice but just offers even less space to stretch the legs out, The kitchen is the same, the fridge is clever but just takes room off elsewhere, especially useable drawer space for large cooking stuff. I'm not sure if the board that seperates boot from interior underbed storage is adjustable, if not then it's retrograde.

I was very interested when I went to camper sales to crawl all over the Westfalia's, if nothing else because for some in this forum they hold almost God-like status as being the originators of the California's, but I could spend that extra £20,000 elsewhere, given the quality of the Hymer conversion.

 

[larrylamb]

Especially when it offers nothing different. The recline on the upright two passenger seats is nice but just offers even less space to stretch the legs out, The kitchen is the same, the fridge is clever but just takes room off elsewhere, especially useable drawer space for large cooking stuff. I'm not sure if the board that seperates boot from interior underbed storage is adjustable, if not then it's retrograde.

I was very interested when I went to camper sales to crawl all over the Westfalia's, if nothing else because for some in this forum they hold almost God-like status as being the originators of the California's, but I could spend that extra £20,000 elsewhere, given the quality of the Hymer conversion.

IMO the Westy build quality whilst v good is not bomb proof like it used to be. I had several quality issues with my 2018. Aftersales is limited in the UK unlike more plentiful Hymer dealerships. I would have another though.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

Especially when it offers nothing different. The recline on the upright two passenger seats is nice but just offers even less space to stretch the legs out, The kitchen is the same, the fridge is clever but just takes room off elsewhere, especially useable drawer space for large cooking stuff. I'm not sure if the board that seperates boot from interior underbed storage is adjustable, if not then it's retrograde.

I was very interested when I went to camper sales to crawl all over the Westfalia's, if nothing else because for some in this forum they hold almost God-like status as being the originators of the California's, but I could spend that extra £20,000 elsewhere, given the quality of the Hymer conversion.

I do love your posts GrannyJen, they always seem enlightened and you seem to know your stuff (either that or you're a great bluffer!!!!)
Which Hymer is it you have as I'm guessing you used an awful lot of due diligence to move away from VW!?

 

[GrannyJen]

I do love your posts GrannyJen, they always seem enlightened and you seem to know your stuff (either that or you're a great bluffer!!!!)
Which Hymer is it you have as I'm guessing you used an awful lot of due diligence to move away from VW!?

I have a Hymer Ayers Rock which sits on the 5.4m fiat Ducato. I cannot have anything longer on my drive and I wanted something that I could pop to the supermarket in without having a load of curtain-twitching, basket wielding old ladies tutting away because I occupy half a dozen parking spaces.

I really cannot sing the driving praises of the Ducato like I could the VW transporter or crafter, but it works, has proved totally reliable and it's rather agricultural noise levels do endorse a simplicity from sometimes the over-technical VW's. Just a silly example but when filling with Ad Blu I just chuck it in until it reaches the brim, with no qualms that I might bugger up the terribly clever fill indicators.

Quality wise, well, over 200 nights of using the thing, I am not gentle by any means and everything is still intact, still put together where it should be, nothing has broken. Unlike that bloke making click-bait video's trashing the crafter I don't have juvenile tantrums when the tap comes off in my hand, I just push it back on.

Very impressed with Hymer quality, the bed is just a delight to climb into and if anyone is interested I have a pile about 50 foot high of left over mattress toppers from the time that I slept downstairs in my Cali's.

 

[larrylamb]

Very impressed with Hymer quality, the bed is just a delight to climb into and if anyone is interested I have a pile about 50 foot high of left over mattress toppers from the time that I slept downstairs in my Cali's.

That's the one thing we've always struggled with in a Cali, getting a comfortable nights sleep.

 

[soulstyledevon]

That's the one thing we've always struggled with in a Cali, getting a comfortable nights sleep.

I concur.
The Hymer beds both fixed and Poptop were miles & miles more comfortable than the California.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

I've just seen a review of a GC which says it's like holidaying in an MRI scanner, did make me smile

 

[Jimmylondon07]

I honestly don’t get the hate! I’ll have four requirements for my next van (which isn’t a daily):

1) Crafter/Man base
2) Year round useability for the family; not keen on a poptop
3) I want to be able to get up and make a brew, then have somewhere to sit and watch something on the iPad while the Mrs and kids are still in bed
4) sub 6m

Still waiting for any recommendations of pre-built vans within £20k of a Grand?

 

[soulstyledevon]

I honestly don’t get the hate! I’ll have four requirements for my next van (which isn’t a daily):

1) Crafter/Man base
2) Year round useability for the family; not keen on a poptop
3) I want to be able to get up and make a brew, then have somewhere to sit and watch something on the iPad while the Mrs and kids are still in bed
4) sub 6m

Still waiting for any recommendations of pre-built vans within £20k of a Grand?

Don’t agree with point 2.
Used my vans with Poptops in winter in the alps with no issues. There’s been members who have ventured up to Norway with a Poptop.

If you want to stay relatively compact, and have kids. The only way is with a Poptop. The extra space it provides in the same foot-print, is unbeatable.

I was tempted by a van this week. Originally built by Ape vans. But it didn’t have a Poptop and thus not enough space for the 3 of us.
Incredible van, near perfect…

 

[Barry Chuckle]

I honestly don’t get the hate! I’ll have four requirements for my next van (which isn’t a daily):

1) Crafter/Man base
2) Year round useability for the family; not keen on a poptop
3) I want to be able to get up and make a brew, then have somewhere to sit and watch something on the iPad while the Mrs and kids are still in bed
4) sub 6m

Still waiting for any recommendations of pre-built vans within £20k of a Grand?

And to be fair that is an incredibly tight brief, which will inevitably favour the GC. If you can compromise a little in some of these there are many more options and detestably better.

I may well be wrong here, but I think the trap people are falling into is they're looking at the current discounts on the GC with the current used prices and thinking bargain. But the massive discounts will eventually feed into the residuals so whilst you may be saving 20k - 30k against alternatives, your trade in will likely be 20k - 30k than these alternatives. Also since Covid, demand has massively outstripped supply but now the opposite is true. In August used car values dropped by their highest rate in nearly 20 years, and RV's will follow this trend I believe.

 

[Jimmylondon07]

Don’t agree with point 2.
Used my vans with Poptops in winter in the alps with no issues. There’s been members who have ventured up to Norway with a Poptop.

If you want to stay relatively compact, and have kids. The only way is with a Poptop. The extra space it provides in the same foot-print, is unbeatable.

I was tempted by a van this week. Originally built by Ape vans. But it didn’t have a Poptop and thus not enough space for the 3 of us.
Incredible van, near perfect…

I didn’t say you had to agree I should also add I’m also a fully fledged member of the leaking poptop brigade so I’ve about had my fill of poptops already.

 

[Jimmylondon07]

And to be fair that is an incredibly tight brief, which will inevitably favour the GC. If you can compromise a little in some of these there are many more options and detestably better.

I may well be wrong here, but I think the trap people are falling into is they're looking at the current discounts on the GC with the current used prices and thinking bargain. But the massive discounts will eventually feed into the residuals so whilst you may be saving 20k - 30k against alternatives, your trade in will likely be 20k - 30k than these alternatives. Also since Covid, demand has massively outstripped supply but now the opposite is true. In August used car values dropped by their highest rate in nearly 20 years, and RV's will follow this trend I believe.

I don’t need to compromise on any of them though, that’s the point.

Back to the OP’s question of whether or not it’s a fail, VW will make their own decision as to whether or not it’s a commercial failure. From a personal perspective what you deem a failure I may deem a success so it’s a bit of a pointless discussion. I am pretty sure we drive different cars too.

Also just a point on the residuals, I looked around a 21 plate in pretty average condition last week that was up for sale at £73k. I just configured a fully loaded brand new one for £79k. I don’t think the depreciation is as bad as you think it is.

Used Motorhomes for Sale - Auto Trader UK

www.autotrader.co.uk

 

[soulstyledevon]

And to be fair that is an incredibly tight brief, which will inevitably favour the GC. If you can compromise a little in some of these there are many more options and detestably better.

I may well be wrong here, but I think the trap people are falling into is they're looking at the current discounts on the GC with the current used prices and thinking bargain. But the massive discounts will eventually feed into the residuals so whilst you may be saving 20k - 30k against alternatives, your trade in will likely be 20k - 30k than these alternatives. Also since Covid, demand has massively outstripped supply but now the opposite is true. In August used car values dropped by their highest rate in nearly 20 years, and RV's will follow this trend I believe.

Yep, I agree.
Many converters are still busy post covid, because of the rush for a self contained units. But, demand must be falling. Volkswagen offerings this month, with 5 year’s servicing and breakdown cover, plus 0% Apr with 50% deposits…

Prices have increased by 30% on some base vans.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

To illustrate my point, I got a new LR Defender in 2021 at the time there was 12m waiting list on them so you paid full list price or didn't get one. At the time 12m old versions with 15k miles were selling at list price or more. Now there are scores at dealers and LR are offering incentives, and guess what 12m old versions are c£15k lower than list as you would expect. My point regarding the GC is not where used prices are NOW it's where they'll be in 12m - 18m time when the discounted stock feed through and the lead times are much shorter. My estimate then is a 12m old GC mid specced will be c £65k whereas as Westfalia SH will be c £85k.
Regarding Jimmys point on the 21 plate at £73k, the person who traded it in probably got £10k less and if you called up and offered them around £68k there is a very strong chance you'd get it.
I really am not having a go at the GC per se, if it suits your needs and you like it buy it making sure you get a hefty discount. But if you're choosing it based on current residuals or the fact that you think you can save £20k over an alternative this I feel is flawed logic.

 

[GrannyJen]

I must be very lucky.

I have bought three campers and never gave a second's thought to residuals. If in3, 4, or 10 years time I would not get back what I expected to then the disappointment will be absolutely nothing compared to the wonderful joy of ownership that I would have had.

When I joined this forum all the talk was of market saturation, don't buy a new one. Four years later I sold Albert to a lovely family at an honest price and looked at all the savings on hotel bills and cooking for myself rather than eat out and was very satisfied with what I got back. I then bought Alfie, whilst all the doom merchants were griping about the "unsustainable" prices of new cali's, and got my money back 4 years later because all the prophets of doom could not predict Covid inflation.

I've now got Kevin, every time I pick the keys up to go away I'm skipping with joy and I can look back on over two hundred nights and think "what an amazing vehicle". What I get back when I sell him.... who knows, not my worry when I'm so happy.

 

[Jimmylondon07]

To illustrate my point, I got a new LR Defender in 2021 at the time there was 12m waiting list on them so you paid full list price or didn't get one. At the time 12m old versions with 15k miles were selling at list price or more. Now there are scores at dealers and LR are offering incentives, and guess what 12m old versions are c£15k lower than list as you would expect. My point regarding the GC is not where used prices are NOW it's where they'll be in 12m - 18m time when the discounted stock feed through and the lead times are much shorter. My estimate then is a 12m old GC mid specced will be c £65k whereas as Westfalia SH will be c £85k.
Regarding Jimmys point on the 21 plate at £73k, the person who traded it in probably got £10k less and if you called up and offered them around £68k there is a very strong chance you'd get it.
I really am not having a go at the GC per se, if it suits your needs and you like it buy it making sure you get a hefty discount. But if you're choosing it based on current residuals or the fact that you think you can save £20k over an alternative this I feel is flawed logic.

I think you’re also overlooking the importance of the purchase price in the first place mate. The GC600 is a van aimed at young families, most of whom will carry a mortgage, childcare costs etc. Residuals aside it’s a bit of an assumption that people can afford to spend the extra £20k on a similar van in the first place, the current offers basically cover your running costs for 5 years as well. Given the choice would I rather have a Grand and put up with a bit of a step off the bed and a little tussle with the ladder when using the bathroom, or spend an extra few years saving for something ‘better’ and missing out on all that time with the kids? No brainer in my book.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

I think you’re also overlooking the importance of the purchase price in the first place mate. The GC600 is a van aimed at young families, most of whom will carry a mortgage, childcare costs etc. Residuals aside it’s a bit of an assumption that people can afford to spend the extra £20k on a similar van in the first place, the current offers basically cover your running costs for 5 years as well. Given the choice would I rather have a Grand and put up with a bit of a step off the bed and a little tussle with the ladder when using the bathroom, or spend an extra few years saving for something ‘better’ and missing out on all that time with the kids? No brainer in my book.

Everyones opinion is a valid as anyone elses, there are tons of alternatives, such as buying secondhand etc if it gets you the model you want with out compromise.
As I said if it suits your needs then get one I'm not bashing the GC. I'm also fully appreciative that £90-£100k is beyond the reach of most, but anyone who has £75k-80k to spend on a brand new GC hardly needs to worry about potentially 'missing out on the dream'

 

[ArunAlec]

One of the advantages of getting old (apart from bus passes and free prescriptions) is that you don’t need to be too bothered about depreciation!

 

[Jester]

Why is it you none owners and have no intention of owning a GC and have never been in one or driven one spend so so much time talking about/whining about them. Yes they have/had issues, has yours!
Get a life

 

[andyinluton]

. But the massive discounts will eventually feed into the residuals so whilst you may be saving 20k - 30k against alternatives, your trade in will likely be 20k - 30k than these alternatives.

If you are paying interest at 10% to finance that extra 30K over 5 years you need to add-on a further £15k on the cost to own of the more expensive van.
You might get your £30k extra initial back come resale but you've lost the cost of borrowing that £30k = £250 / month!