Getting ahead of the inherent defect of VW PD engines

[Doug Curran]

As a new (to me) owner of a used T5 Ocean, as I poured over various forums, I read many complaints about wear of the camshaft and head, with lots of replacements undertaken. What I didn't come across - other than cautions regarding the faithful use of the VW spec oil, was a broad recognition of the inherent engineering defect of VW to not control the movement and rocking of their PD injectors. The clamp system on these PD engines (both 4 & 5 cylinder) with its single screw "clamping foot" on only one side, allows the injector to rock back and forth in its bore, eventually wearing semi circular gouges into the bores and sealing surfaces.

The result of this is leakage of fuel (under high pressures) past the injector seals, is dilution of the lubricating oil. This dilution results in the oil failing to protect metal to metal parts, particularly of the high loading found on camshaft lobes and lifters. In severe cases the loss of compression in the cylinder results in hard starting and low performance.
It was only recently that I became aware of a solution that offers a reliable upgrade to forestall further wear and/or in most cases eliminates the further onset of bore wear and oil dilution, adding tens of thousands of reliable miles to the PD engine: The 07eins 'Ultimate Bridge'

I bought the Ultimate Bridge kit once I realized the critical deficiency of the VW PDE injector design and it's prone to failure to the engine due to oil dilution. The 07eins units are beautifully and precisely machined to eliminate the injectors rocking in their bores. It's regrettable that VW did not have the brains to engineer around a problem that can shorten or completely destroy the diesel engines in their vehicles. More people need to be made aware of the inherent defect of these engines. The 07eins kit is precisely assembled, with clear instructions and videos to make installation painless for DIY home mechanics.

Realizing that many Calis with the older PD engines are nearing the end of their useful life, it would still make sense to install one of these kits on an aging engine - or a new rebuilt unit - as it prevents the onset of this factory defect that radically shortened the life of the original engines. 07eins will even accept the return of the unit (less consumables/stretch bolts) if it fails to remedy your issues related to the injectors and bore wear. Check out their upgrade of Viton seals for additional protection.

 

[sidepod]

How interesting! I’ve been chasing a hard start issue on my PD powered Golf for a few months now.
I’ve been through the glow plug circuit, replaced the tandem pump, coolant temp sensor and fuel return valve. Still not cured it.

I was reading through the VW tutorial on PD injectors and my first reaction was how odd to just use a single bolt to hold the units in place.

My unit has covered 260k and I service it religiously with the VW 505/507 etc. There has never been any indication of oil distribution.
That said , this could well be my next check.
I was about to replace the lift pump and cam sensor.

Good Intel. Well done.

 

[sidepod]

Bedtime reading.

 

[sidepod]

 

[soulstyledevon]

As a new (to me) owner of a used T5 Ocean, as I poured over various forums, I read many complaints about wear of the camshaft and head, with lots of replacements undertaken. What I didn't come across - other than cautions regarding the faithful use of the VW spec oil, was a broad recognition of the inherent engineering defect of VW to not control the movement and rocking of their PD injectors. The clamp system on these PD engines (both 4 & 5 cylinder) with its single screw "clamping foot" on only one side, allows the injector to rock back and forth in its bore, eventually wearing semi circular gouges into the bores and sealing surfaces.

The result of this is leakage of fuel (under high pressures) past the injector seals, is dilution of the lubricating oil. This dilution results in the oil failing to protect metal to metal parts, particularly of the high loading found on camshaft lobes and lifters. In severe cases the loss of compression in the cylinder results in hard starting and low performance.
It was only recently that I became aware of a solution that offers a reliable upgrade to forestall further wear and/or in most cases eliminates the further onset of bore wear and oil dilution, adding tens of thousands of reliable miles to the PD engine: The 07eins 'Ultimate Bridge'

I bought the Ultimate Bridge kit once I realized the critical deficiency of the VW PDE injector design and it's prone to failure to the engine due to oil dilution. The 07eins units are beautifully and precisely machined to eliminate the injectors rocking in their bores. It's regrettable that VW did not have the brains to engineer around a problem that can shorten or completely destroy the diesel engines in their vehicles. More people need to be made aware of the inherent defect of these engines. The 07eins kit is precisely assembled, with clear instructions and videos to make installation painless for DIY home mechanics.

Realizing that many Calis with the older PD engines are nearing the end of their useful life, it would still make sense to install one of these kits on an aging engine - or a new rebuilt unit - as it prevents the onset of this factory defect that radically shortened the life of the original engines. 07eins will even accept the return of the unit (less consumables/stretch bolts) if it fails to remedy your issues related to the injectors and bore wear. Check out their upgrade of Viton seals for additional protection.

View attachment 117170

Did this affect 2008 vans…?
I only ask, because I had an issue starting the vehicle, when the engine was warm. The vehicle had less than 50k miles and was only a few years old. Volkswagens solution was a brand new engine, I ended up shifting the van on to a mechanic, and never had an outcome to this issue.

 

[sidepod]

I’m not sure this is a hot start thing. When warm, things are nice and expanded and fit snug.
My thoughts are when cold, there is a slightly larger clearance between the injector units and head which, if there are any problems, will reduce compression and result in a long crank before start.

There are plenty of theories around the hot start problem.

Replacing an entire engine seems extreme even for VW.

 

[sidepod]

Actually, thinking about the first post here, apart from oil dilution due to fuel contamination, there would surely be a viable increase in oil level at the dip stick long before any wear was incurred?

 

[Doug Curran]

How interesting! I’ve been chasing a hard start issue on my PD powered Golf for a few months now.
I’ve been through the glow plug circuit, replaced the tandem pump, coolant temp sensor and fuel return valve. Still not cured it.

I was reading through the VW tutorial on PD injectors and my first reaction was how odd to just use a single bolt to hold the units in place.

My unit has covered 260k and I service it religiously with the VW 505/507 etc. There has never been any indication of oil distribution.
That said , this could well be my next check.
I was about to replace the lift pump and cam sensor.

Good Intel. Well done.

Sidepod, 07eins makes two versions of their PD kits, the Ultimate and an earlier, simpler version that is a cantilever bracket that imposes a diagonal force across the injector body to control the rocking. They say either works well, but I prefer the robustness of the Ultimate Bridge. They have kits made up for 4 cylinder PD engines as well. Beyond the machined parts, the additional components, bolts, fasteners, seals, etc. are all top quality, all well packaged.
Installation relies on experience with a good quality torque wrench and degree dial socket to achieve proper stretch on the bolts.
In any case, given the mileage on your engine, resealing the injectors would seem to be in order. The clamping deficiency of the injectors goes beyond simply being a maintenance issue.
Dark Side in the UK carries the kits but 07eins delivered our kits VAT free, so at least we're not paying double taxation coming to Canada. Contact: kontakt@07eins.com They've come to know me well. Cheers, Doug

 

[Doug Curran]

Bedtime reading.

The diagram shows the problem clearly: the hard steel of the injector wears semicircular divots into the opposing side wall of the injector bore, due to the unbalanced clamping forces. Crap engineering - especially where one has the pounding of a pump injector.
I've seen German videos of injectors removed from a PD engine with perfect (and sharp) slivers of aluminum attached to the main body seal. Hard steel chafing against soft metal is going to have an impact. As the bore gains space from minute wear cycles, it further throws the injector off centre exacerbating the wear and damage.
It doesn't take huge amounts of dilution of the oil base to diminish its shear strength over time.
As my Chewa friends in Malawi say, "Little, little makes a heap." 07eins supplies new Bosch seal kits along with their brackets, but also a Viton kit with very slight increase of the cord dimension to effect greater sealing and material durability.

 

[Calibrator]

Which years were these engines fitted to california's?

 

[sidepod]

I’m pretty sure all of them run PD engines. The question is has the design been improved and when.

Bear in mind of course, as usual, we don’t have numbers for this so no way of knowing if it’s actually an issue or just an isolated incident blown to internet sized proportions?

 

[Yohn61]

I own a 2019 build T 6.1 California Coast with 70.000km on the clock. A few weeks ago the car underwent a full service inspection including oil shift on motor, DSG and Haldex. The garage made a mistake and put 7.4 liters of oil in the engine instead of 6.4.
The message "Please reduce oil level. Workshop!" popped up and the garage drained all oil and put 6.4 liters in (including oil filter shift). However after this correction that same warning popped up again. This happened with a warm engine (91deg C) while engine delivering extra power for driving uphill. This is where I made the connection with Doug Curran's interesting post.
Garage took out a liter of oil and sent it to a lab for inspection (diesel dilution?). I am still awaiting the result of the lab test while observing oil levels closely as per garage instructions.
Could this Injector problem be the root cause of this lubricating oil rise that I have seen?
I am not a mechanic at all and I have no clue where to start checking / upgrading these injector clamp systems. Of course the first question is why does this oil level warning pops up after a service inspection and was never seen before.
Any thoughts on this are much appreciated.

 

[WelshGas]

I own a 2019 build T 6.1 California Coast with 70.000km on the clock. A few weeks ago the car underwent a full service inspection including oil shift on motor, DSG and Haldex. The garage made a mistake and put 7.4 liters of oil in the engine instead of 6.4.
The message "Please reduce oil level. Workshop!" popped up and the garage drained all oil and put 6.4 liters in (including oil filter shift). However after this correction that same warning popped up again. This happened with a warm engine (91deg C) while engine delivering extra power for driving uphill. This is where I made the connection with Doug Curran's interesting post.
Garage took out a liter of oil and sent it to a lab for inspection (diesel dilution?). I am still awaiting the result of the lab test while observing oil levels closely as per garage instructions.
Could this Injector problem be the root cause of this lubricating oil rise that I have seen?
I am not a mechanic at all and I have no clue where to start checking / upgrading these injector clamp systems. Of course the first question is why does this oil level warning pops up after a service inspection and was never seen before.
Any thoughts on this are much appreciated.

Not an uncommon problem. There was a software update to address it I believe.
See here on the T6 Forum.

Search results for query: High oil level

www.t6forum.com

 

[Ch1pbutty]

I own a 2019 build T 6.1 California Coast with 70.000km on the clock. A few weeks ago the car underwent a full service inspection including oil shift on motor, DSG and Haldex. The garage made a mistake and put 7.4 liters of oil in the engine instead of 6.4.
The message "Please reduce oil level. Workshop!" popped up and the garage drained all oil and put 6.4 liters in (including oil filter shift). However after this correction that same warning popped up again. This happened with a warm engine (91deg C) while engine delivering extra power for driving uphill. This is where I made the connection with Doug Curran's interesting post.
Garage took out a liter of oil and sent it to a lab for inspection (diesel dilution?). I am still awaiting the result of the lab test while observing oil levels closely as per garage instructions.
Could this Injector problem be the root cause of this lubricating oil rise that I have seen?
I am not a mechanic at all and I have no clue where to start checking / upgrading these injector clamp systems. Of course the first question is why does this oil level warning pops up after a service inspection and was never seen before.
Any thoughts on this are much appreciated.

Below explains what can happen as a result of overfilling. Make sure that they give your van a proper check and don't just try to fob you off with the usual dealer bullsh@t - “diagnostic machine shows no faults”:

What happens if you put too much oil in your car?

What happens if you put too much oil in your car? Here are the symptoms and effects of overfilling, what you should do if you have too much oil, and how to find out how much oil your car takes.

totalenergies.co.uk

https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/what-happens-when-you-put-too-much-oil-in-your-car

 

[sidepod]

I’m not surprised it’s reading over full. You’ll never drain 6.5 litres out at a service, even if the oil is warm. If they drained it after their mistake and refilled without changing the filter then 6.5 would be too much due to the residual oil.

 

[Doug Curran]

Actually, thinking about the first post here, apart from oil dilution due to fuel contamination, there would surely be a viable increase in oil level at the dip stick long before any wear was incurred?

There are several issues at play simultaneously; there is a degree of (potentially) fuel dilution adding minutely to oil levels, at the same time there is oil consumption, with oil slipping past piston rings, valve stems and seeping gaskets. The addition of fuel dilution could mask the consumption - you would not know you had a problem because it is, in effect, self masking. Too, breakdown of the oil's ability to prevent metal-to-metal contact, would accelerate wear issues (as seen on cams and lifters).

 

[happyjames013]

I own a 2019 build T 6.1 California Coast with 70.000km on the clock. A few weeks ago the car underwent a full service inspection including oil shift on motor, DSG and Haldex. The garage made a mistake and put 7.4 liters of oil in the engine instead of 6.4.
The message "Please reduce oil level. Workshop!" popped up and the garage drained all oil and put 6.4 liters in (including oil filter shift). However after this correction that same warning popped up again. This happened with a warm engine (91deg C) while engine delivering extra power for driving uphill. This is where I made the connection with Doug Curran's interesting post.
Garage took out a liter of oil and sent it to a lab for inspection (diesel dilution?). I am still awaiting the result of the lab test while observing oil levels closely as per garage instructions.
Could this Injector problem be the root cause of this lubricating oil rise that I have seen?
I am not a mechanic at all and I have no clue where to start checking / upgrading these injector clamp systems. Of course the first question is why does this oil level warning pops up after a service inspection and was never seen before.
Any thoughts on this are much appreciated.

Different engine in yours. The T5 had the PD injection system from T5.1, introduced in 2010, and subsequent T’s have use the common rail (CR) system, partly because it’s quieter and more refined, partly because it’s more suited to use with DPFs.
Having had the 1.9 and 2.0 PD engines, I have to say the CR engine in my T5.1 is quieter and nicer.

 

[Doug Curran]

I’m pretty sure all of them run PD engines. The question is has the design been improved and when.

Bear in mind of course, as usual, we don’t have numbers for this so no way of knowing if it’s actually an issue or just an isolated incident blown to internet sized proportions?

What I've noticed is that in general, overall members of VWCalifornia Club tend to be a little older and 'wealthier' than the average poster on VW Vortex or other forums that lean towards a younger ownership of vans, performance vehicles and DIYers. The DIYers are the ones pulling injectors, replacing camshafts, while the Cali owners list complaints about the diagnosis and cost from their dealers. Everyone looks to sources to fit their budgets.
The issue of injectors rocking off centre - as I pointed out my original post here - everyone tends to complain about the related symptoms. The fact is by about 175,000 kms. every T5 PD engine begins to exhibit some degree of issues directly related to off-centring injectors caused by the deficient manner in which the injectors are clamped. As useful as the forum is, there is actually a world operating outside of this forum.
From RossTech site, "Bore wear Almost all 2.5 and the V10 found on Phaeton (which is 2 x 2.5 engines put together so to say ) have this problem past 200.000 kms due to factory design flaw."
FYI; Ross Tech's VCDS is the premier diagnostic software used by independent garages servicing VW/Audi/Seat, internationally. Other useful sources on the issue abound.

 

[happyjames013]

I’m pretty sure all of them run PD engines. The question is has the design been improved and when.

Bear in mind of course, as usual, we don’t have numbers for this so no way of knowing if it’s actually an issue or just an isolated incident blown to internet sized proportions?

PD was used on the t5 but changed to common rail (CR) for the T5.1 and later models in 2010.

 

[sidepod]

PD was used on the t5 but changed to common rail (CR) for the T5.1 and later models in 2010.

Interesting. I wonder what drove that decision? Probably cost. Cheaper to design/make a standard cylinder head than one to accommodate injector units. One single HP pump works out cheaper?

 

[sidepod]

What I've noticed is that in general, overall members of VWCalifornia Club tend to be a little older and 'wealthier' than the average poster on VW Vortex or other forums that lean towards a younger ownership of vans, performance vehicles and DIYers. The DIYers are the ones pulling injectors, replacing camshafts, while the Cali owners list complaints about the diagnosis and cost from their dealers. Everyone looks to sources to fit their budgets.
The issue of injectors rocking off centre - as I pointed out my original post here - everyone tends to complain about the related symptoms. The fact is by about 175,000 kms. every T5 PD engine begins to exhibit some degree of issues directly related to off-centring injectors caused by the deficient manner in which the injectors are clamped. As useful as the forum is, there is actually a world operating outside of this forum.
From RossTech site, "Bore wear Almost all 2.5 and the V10 found on Phaeton (which is 2 x 2.5 engines put together so to say ) have this problem past 200.000 kms due to factory design flaw."
FYI; Ross Tech's VCDS is the premier diagnostic software used by independent garages servicing VW/Audi/Seat, internationally. Other useful sources on the issue abound.

Perhaps this is why Vee Dub reverted to CR engines? See post above.

 

[Doug Curran]

Perhaps this is why Vee Dub reverted to CR engines? See post above.

There are several different issues at play. The first relates to the decision to employ a deficient clamping design of a single bolt per injector when what was required was two bolts to create equal clamping forces on both sides of the injector so the unit didn't 'rock' back and forth in the injector bore (even though minutely). Where you have unequal forces at work, the tendency is for objects to move towards the side with less force/stability. Where you don't have stability you have movement, where you have movement you have wear, where you have wear you will have failure.

The other overriding issue relates to emissions and whether for petrol or diesel, the pressure has long been on to achieving cleaner burning and greater control of the combustion process. The CR/common rail is not a system that VW 'reverted to'. It ia system developed out of the digital electronic controls available, couple with post combustion treatment (catalytic converters, diesel particulate filters). Looking at contemporary common rail engines there have been both success in some areas and failures in others. This quest has involved the vehicle owners in a longterm mass experiment, still in progress. Someone else can pick up the defence for common rail engines.