Wild camping outlawed

[Mickyb123]

Wild camping in Scotland is only permitted on unenclosed land and even then in lots of regions restrictions are in place. Freedom to roam is also quite a misnomer as IPT he right to roam has lots of restrictions as to proximity to buildings and very similar to this case purpose. It’s not that straightforward in Scotland despite what some folk think

 

[chockswahay]

Wild camping in Scotland is only permitted on unenclosed land and even then in lots of regions restrictions are in place. Freedom to roam is also quite a misnomer as IPT he right to roam has lots of restrictions as to proximity to buildings and very similar to this case purpose. It’s not that straightforward in Scotland despite what some folk think

There are a TRUCK LOAD of places to camp in the Highlands!

 

[onceuponatimeinthenorth]

I

I live and work on Dartmoor,,I also run, ride, climb, swim and camp on the moor.
When ever a commercial activity takes place we have always ask permission from the land owner if it’s acceptable and give them a brief outline of activities and locations, this cover my RA but also gives the landowner a right to say no if they desire which does happen from time to time. Generally lambing season or a very wet or dry episode.
As far as we have been briefed we can still engage with all activities just not in the area of this case.
Wild camping, swimming, climbing has always been at the discretion of the land owner, it was never a free for all just a ruling that was never enforced.
It’s a real shame that wild camping has been outlawed within the area but there are more quiet and amazing locations within the moor we can all still go too. Next time you get out a OS map take a proper look, hidden gems inviting you in.
If you need any info on land ownership the parks can help you, most times they will know of the land owner permits camping etc.
I think we have to be careful and not escalate a problem that’s all ready volatile or we could possibly see other land owners following suit.

The DNPA won’t give out landowner’s contact details.. it states this explicitly on the wild camping page.
I too climb and ride on the moor and anticipate a great deal of escalation by the Right to Roam campaign and associated groups. And good luck to them as well. I’m hoping that attention returns to the problem of climbing access to Vixen Tor.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Well put.

And of course we all have to deal with the consequences of anti social behaviour. I’m forever picking up crisp packets and fast food containers that have blown onto my front garden, presumably defenestrated by passing motorists.

In fact, I would lay a wager that I collect, proportionately, 10 times more rubbish from my small London plot than the Darwalls clear from their 4000 acre estate.

I don’t give it a second thought.

Me too.
I have a builders bucket and litter picker. I walk five houses up and down and the alley at the end. I pick everything up I see.
It’s once a week and 10 mins out of my day. I can’t understand why more people don’t do it.

 

[GrannyJen]

The DNPA won’t give out landowner’s contact details.. it states this explicitly on the wild camping page.
I too climb and ride on the moor and anticipate a great deal of escalation by the Right to Roam campaign and associated groups. And good luck to them as well. I’m hoping that attention returns to the problem of climbing access to Vixen Tor.

The ban on vixen tor is a terrible slim edge of the wedge.

I started rock climbing 64 years ago, as a crag-deprived Londoner on a very fixed income (pocket money) spending everything I had to get to Groombridge in Kent. Now closed. I can since then trace my life with "now closed" notices.

I note also that the Royal Marines now finish the 30 mile march at Bickleigh rather than scholars bridge because of "restrictions". Bloody good show. Lets stop our military being able to march and shoot just so a load of pucker-nosed tossers who care naff all about the countryside can go along and (try) to shoot wildlife that should be just left alone.

 

[Cali Phillip]

There are a TRUCK LOAD of places to camp in the Highlands

Totally agree, yes there are reasonable exceptions, enclosed land is often next to a dwelling.
Yes its likely the estate will be aware of the camping, they tend to see more than you appreciate but
there are huge swathes of the North west highlands where responsible access and camping are allowed.
Almost all the issues are road side camping with a car, alcohol often involved also which is not covered under the act.

In all the years coming to Scotland pre land reform and post doing the munro we didnt have any issues nor have we in England, in places like Northumberland in the hills.

 

[Amarillo]

One of the planned protests.

Raise Old Crockern to Defend Dartmoor!

Summon the spirit of Old Crockern - Dartmoor's ancient defender against greed!

www.eventbrite.com

 

[Amarillo]

Summary of the judgement.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Darwall-v-Dartmoor-National-Park-Authority-Judgment-Summary.pdf

Despite 38 years of an assumed right to camp the judge decided there was insufficient evidence of a local custom of camping.

Surely this can be appealed?

 

[Cali Phillip]

Summary of the judgement.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Darwall-v-Dartmoor-National-Park-Authority-Judgment-Summary.pdf

Despite 38 years of an assumed right to camp the judge decided there was insufficient evidence of a local custom of camping.

Surely this can be appealed?

Crikey 38years, its only 4yrs if a building is built without planning before you can get a certificate of lawfulness. Many try that game.

 

[The Tall Luthier]

Summary of the judgement.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Darwall-v-Dartmoor-National-Park-Authority-Judgment-Summary.pdf

Despite 38 years of an assumed right to camp the judge decided there was insufficient evidence of a local custom of camping.

Surely this can be appealed?

A quick google of Darwall shows an 60 year old city financier who gave £89,000 to UKIP. Talk about leaving the world a worse place than you found it!
I certainly don't think the appeal will be won on compassionate grounds, all Kippers have is hatred for this, that, the other and anyone who is not 'them'.

 

[Cali Phillip]

A quick google of Darwall shows an 60 year old city financier who gave £89,000 to UKIP. Talk about leaving the world a worse place than you found it!
I certainly don't think the appeal will be won on compassionate grounds, all Kippers have is hatred for this, that, the other and anyone who is not 'them'.

And yet some with more wealth llike Yvon Chulouinard are doing so much and others but they are the few sadly.

 

[Velma's Dad]

I certainly don't think the appeal will be won on compassionate grounds,..

No, if there's an appeal it'll be decided on interpretation of the existing law, as the High Court's adjudication was. (The judgment itself runs to 98 paragraphs in case you're looking for some bedtime reading. But I don't think the word compassionate is in there.)

This seems to me to be a matter for parliament, not the courts.

 

[Cali Phillip]

MP who received donation from landowner refuses to criticise Dartmoor camping decision

Totnes MP Anthony Mangnall was given £5,000 according to parliament’s register of members’ interests in 2020

www.theguardian.com

 

[Amarillo]

Me, far right and far left on the Dartmoor Ten Tors 1982. I think the first photo is Hound Tor (our first checkpoint) and the second photo is at the finish: five of six of us completed the 35 mile two day hike.

 

[Doorbundle]

Me, far right and far left on the Dartmoor Ten Tors 1982. I think the first photo is Hound Tor (our first checkpoint) and the second photo is at the finish: five of six of us completed the 35 mile two day hike.

A friend whose boys went to Churcher's College had used to marshal on the Ten Tors, I guess the whole event is at risk now?

 

[Amarillo]

A friend whose boys went to Churcher's College had used to marshal on the Ten Tors, I guess the whole event is at risk now?

Exactly that. The landowners will need to give their consent each year. I think there are seven major landowners. If one or two withdraw consent the organisers (the army) can probably work around it. But any more and the event would probably have to be cancelled.

 

[Doorbundle]

Yes, a pity if so , I understand TT has not run over Covid.
Lets hope TT can get their ducks in a row for this year.

 

[Amarillo]

Yes, a pity if so , I understand TT has not run over Covid.
Lets hope TT can get their ducks in a row for this year.

I’ve just been reading up on it on Wikipedia. It’s all changed since the 80s with teams tracked by GPS. It used to be that teams checked in at each of the ten checkpoints and that was radioed back to the command tent at Okehampton and progress charted on a giant board for the parents, leaders and teachers back at base.

 

[Amarillo]

Yes, a pity if so , I understand TT has not run over Covid.
Lets hope TT can get their ducks in a row for this year.

Agreement reached.

True wild camping allowed without consent, but that can be withdrawn at any moment.

Agreement reached following Dartmoor wild camping discussions (Thursday 19th)

thebmc.co.uk

My thoughts...

The Darwalls must have thought themselves lucky to get the High Court judgement they did, and to mitigate the risk of a loss on appeal have reached a compromise. They surely would have been spooked by the thought of a future Labour government revisiting the Right to Roam legislation and including a right to camp clause.

Negative
This agreement depends on the goodwill of landowners.

Positive
It could be a blueprint for other national parks in England and Wales, especially those of wilderness: Snowdonia, Lake District, Peak District, North Yorkshire Moors, Northumberland, Brecon Beacons and Yorkshire Dales; but perhaps not, South Downs, New Forest, Pembrokeshire, Exmoor and Norfolk Broads,

 

[Amarillo]

Dartmoor National Park seeks leave to appeal the ban on wild camping.

Dartmoor park launches attempt to appeal against wild camping ruling | Access to green space | The Guardian

Lawyers argue judgment to end wild camping without landowner’s permission may be flawed

amp.theguardian.com

 

[Amarillo]

Dartmoor National Park allowed to appeal ruling that outlawed wild camping without the landowner’s consent.

Dartmoor wild camping hopes rise as park wins right to appeal against ban | Access to green space | The Guardian

Authority given permission to challenge high court ruling in favour of landowner

amp.theguardian.com

 

[vmaxkiddy]

Apparently wild toileting is now a problem. I guess its because there’s no phone boxes anymore

The war against wild toileting: is there any way to stop people weeing – and worse – in the street?

Public peeing has become commonplace, with some men even urinating through letterboxes. Why has it become so popular and can splashback paint put a stop to it?

www.theguardian.com

 

[Amarillo]

The Dartmoor National Park authority confirms it will appeal the ruling banning wild camping without the landowners’ consent.

Landowners slam the park authority for behaving like a campaign group not a park authority.

Unanimous vote to appeal wild camping ban - BBC News

A High Court judge ruled in January that wild camping on Dartmoor required landowner permission.

www.bbc.com

 

[Hawthorn37]

National Parks were formed for the enjoyment and wellbeing of the population, not to maintain wild spaces for the super rich. It looks like the Dartmoor National Park remembers why it exists.

 

[WelshGas]

National Parks were formed for the enjoyment and wellbeing of the population, not to maintain wild spaces for the super rich. It looks like the Dartmoor National Park remembers why it exists.

Not quite

Dartmoor National Park Authority was created by the Environment Act 1995 to:

• conserve and enhance Dartmoor National Park’s natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage
• promote opportunities for the public to understand and enjoy the special qualities of Dartmoor National Park.

We also have a duty to:

• promote the economic and social wellbeing of local communities in Dartmoor National Park