When is a caravan not a caravan?

[Loz]

I would have simply written back, "I'm sorry, you have been mis-informed, I do not own a Caravan or boat" offering any additional information or compromise just gives them more ammo"

And keep replying the same...

I hate stuff like this and it makes my fume on your behalf, best of luck.

 

[Amarillo]

I doesn’t matter what you or I define as a “Caravan”, it depends on the Freeholder’s definition when writing the Covenant which the House Owner then agreed to when purchasing the property.

This is absolutely correct. Any tribunal will take a look at the Covenant as a whole and decide if it is more likely than not that the intent was to exclude vehicles of the type of your California. If it were me I would class an Ocean as a caravan due to its features of a caravan, beds, kitchen, fresh and waste water. No WC is an item in your favour. Although a Beach has beds, the lack of a kitchen, fresh and waste water, and WC would suggest it is not a caravan as intended by covenant.

Another item in your favour is “caravan” being grouped with “boats” suggesting the intent was not to ban motor caravans, but caravans and boats hauled about behind another vehicle. I think you’d be lucky to convince a tribunal of this.

Fortunately for you, first tier tribunals rarely award costs, and putting your case is a simple matter, so if you leave it to a first tier tribunal to decide risk is minimal - just comply with any ruling of the tribunal and the matter will end.



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[Perfectos]

I feel sorry for you, this must be causing some considerably stress.

Have you asked VWUK for comment? they have a vested interest in determining this and establishing the Cali is a passenger vehicle, as designed and marketed by them, this has the potential to impact Vw’s ability to sell Cali’s as this could apply to lots of property, including council, ex council and housing associations to name a few million, let alone the private lease hold sector, and thefore lots of potential customers.

Fire off an email and ask for vwuk to explain the situation fully and highlight the potential problem for VW should this go against you, particularly if this gets out in the public domain, ask VW to confirm the type of vehicle classification and main intended use Of a Cali, request they state that a California it is “not a caravan” but a utility passenger vehicle etc.

Similarly email Department of transport to clarify the V5 classification stated on the V5, passenger motor vehicle, not a caravan and ask for a clear determination between a passenger vehicle as stated on the V5 and a caravan.
Ask for the definition of a caravan under their classifications?
Ask for the definition of a passenger vehicle?

As others have said request the meaning of the definition applied in the lease, to be clearly stated without ambiguity
when this is provided check this very carefully with your original conveyancing solicitor against the original documents received, as he / she has a vested intrest ensuring he / she has conducted the conveyancing and advised you correctly!

Importantly: are there any other vans or utility passenger vehicles on your development whatsoever ?
If so take pictures of vehicles on drives or the highway, even visitors who may park up for a short time, as this may be useful to establish that other vans / utility vehicles are using the facilities freely and un harassed, this can then be used to force a determination as to whether there is a differential between different types of van / utility (passenger vehicle) and differential in manufacturers, refer back to VWUK and DOT !

It looks likely that you will have to go down the legal route of a determination as described by Amarillo.

Ask your conveyance solicitor for help in establishing his “original” understanding of the lease, which has a legal implication in itself, as you employed him to do just that, and ask for advise and whom would they suggest is best placed to give you further legal advise you require to establish the facts of the complaint/ issue to enable a defence to be prepared ( in case common sense does not prevail)

If the freehold owner is aware you will defend the case robustly, and their is ambiguity that could be interpreted either way, they may drop it.

Good luck, I don’t envy you.

 

[Perfectos]

https://www.trethowans.com/news/don...aravans-and-commercial-vans-on-your-driveway/

https://blog.apollocamper.com/all-posts/whats-the-difference-between-a-motorhome-and-a-campervan/

http://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk...egal-definition-of-Motorhome-v-caravan/31651/

 

[Trebor]

I live in a leasehold property.

The lease states:-
"Not to park any caravan or boat on the property"

After using my own allocated space to park my Cali for more than 18 months - out of the blue a written notice was delivered to me. It demands that I remove my vehicle from the estate and not to use my allocated parking space to park my VW Cali as to do so contravenes the above.
Of course I read the lease, thought I understood it and was willing to comply but it appears that I didn't fully understand the requirement.
One of the reasons we bought the property was the extra security it afforded to my Cali, with it being a gated residence.

I have pointed out that my VW Cali is a motor vehicle, as defined by the road traffic act 1988 - I have a V5C, an MOT and I pay vehicle excise duty.
Caravans are not subjected to the same legal requirements.

I have legal expense cover on both my motor vehicle (Comfort Insurance) and home contents insurance but this scenario appears to drop between the cracks and after submitting claims to each organisation both have been denied. Buildings insurance is the responsibility of the Freeholder.

Unfortunately, although I feel my case is water tight, it is a battle not the war.
Even if I was successful at a tribunal in this case I believe my life would be made difficult by the people in power.
On this basis and regrettably after three long months I am seriously considering my sanity and moving my Cali off the gated estate and taking a hit with the increased risk of theft and passing traffic damage to my Cali, while parked on the public highways.
Any advice, words of comfort / support or a listening ear on this forum very much appreciated.
Tomcali

We had a similar lease a while ago which said no boats in garage . We had two or three complaints and a letter from the management company . Just said we didn’t have a boat . They got fed up in the end .

 

[Amarillo]

An alternative way to resolve this dispute is by mediation. Typically both sides agree to share costs equally, decide on a mediator and agree to be bound by any decision.
http://thepropertymediators.co.uk/your-property-dispute/


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[MarkVw2017]

An alternative way to resolve this dispute is by mediation. Typically both sides agree to share costs equally, decide on a mediator and agree to be bound by any decision.
http://thepropertymediators.co.uk/your-property-dispute/


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Or just save a load of hassle and money, and park it outside the gate or move house to somewhere you and you cali are welcome and accepted

 

[EddieEagle]

An alternative way to resolve this dispute is by mediation. Typically both sides agree to share costs equally, decide on a mediator and agree to be bound by any decision.
http://thepropertymediators.co.uk/your-property-dispute/


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For a moment there I thought we had a really practical suggestion ( without dismissing all of the other suggestions )

Meditation !

Must get these glasses checked

 

[Amarillo]

Another route is to trawl through decisions given by the First Tier Tribunal, property division for a similar case. This is a very painstaking process as there is little opportunity to filter decisions.

Here’s a case where someone was taken to the FTT for parking a broken BMW on a shared parking space for three years.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...1d342/Flat_2__Bridge_Hill_House__Decision.pdf

But you also need to note that even if you find a decision that supports your case, a FTT is not bound by a decision of another FTT, only by a higher court.


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[Joker 1299]

If the lease doesn’t define caravan, then it will be for a court or tribunal to decide. They will look at the intent behind the prohibition and the practicalities of the situation. So, for a dual purpose vehicle like the Cali (or an Amphicar) is it a car, or is it a caravan (or a boat)? Questions they would ask might include: Is it used every day (like a car) or is it stored most of the time and used occasionally (like a caravan, or boat)? Is it ever used for habitation on site (as a spare bedroom for visitors, perhaps)? Do you have another car as well? Is the profile and footprint more like a car, or a (typical) caravan? With luck, they would find in favour of what is reasonable.

Failing that, if Welsh Gas is right and the Caravan Site definition applies, it doesn’t include tents. So buy a big tent and park the Cali inside it!

 

[larrylamb]

If it's not being used for habitation on site and is in regular use as a car I can't see why someone is complaining. It doesn't stand out as a "motorhome" and is similar in size to a LR Discovery.
After much googling I think WG is right as that legislation seems to be the only legal definition of a caravan.
I don't think the Caravan club would agree or any van with a mattress in the back and a slidepod would qualify.

 

[Bellcrew]

If it's not being used for habitation on site and is in regular use as a car I can't see why someone is complaining. It doesn't stand out as a "motorhome" and is similar in size to a LR Discovery.
After much googling I think WG is right as that legislation seems to be the only legal definition of a caravan.
I don't think the Caravan club would agree or any van with a mattress in the back and a slidepod would qualify.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less."
Mean spirited so and so's, presumably they are worried about precedent, let you have your smaller than many cars camper and someone will put a Winnebago on the drive.

 

[Joker 1299]

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less."
Mean spirited so and so's, presumably they are worried about precedent, let you have your smaller than many cars camper and someone will put a Winnebago on the drive.

Not in contract law. In a contract, lease, insurance policy or similar, if you want a word or phrase to have a particular meaning, then you must define it within the contract (or lease, or policy) it then has that same meaning wherever it is used in the contract. If you don’t define it, then Humpty Dumpty is just an egg like creature that fell off a wall (or any other definition that is in common usage).

 

[Meoncoast]

Meditation !

Must get these glasses checked

Without my glasses, I read it as medication!

 

[Ginab]

I do sympathise with your situation and agree that a meeting with your solicitor would be the best way forward to start. A get together with the company using mediation might give you a real reason for the company’s current action and something could possibly be done together eg is it the size of the vehicle that makes it difficult for anyone else to park easily - you might be able to adjust? The height of it should not be an issue which is one reason we never got a camper van with fixed roof, as it might be annoying to neighbours sitting in their gardens. Are people worried you or visitors are going to sleep out there and lower the tone?
We can all argue what the vehicle is and what the word caravan is but that won’t necessarily win the case - my experience of working with the law is that it doesn’t always think like normal human beings.
Good luck and don’t forget you can always park elsewhere if no option and it will remove the stress from you

 

[Eber123]

Good morning,

I can only imagine how much stress this causes. I never thought that a VW California (or even a Mercedes Marco Polo) could raise unhappiness with neighbors because it is parked on the driveway. I asked myself if you had a VW Caravelle, PanAmericana or Multivan if that would raise the same issue? At the end it is the same kind of vehicle after all.

I had a look at the "Registration Certificate" for my California Ocean.

Under "D3 - body type" it says "Motor Caravan"

The EU Vehicle Category is "M1" which is:

Vehicles designed and constructed for the carriage of passengers and comprising no more than eight seats in addition to the driver’s seat e.g. Cars, People Carriers

It is all a bit confusing.

Regards,
Eberhard

 

[BerndRos]

I have been doing day to day Conveyancing for almost 40 years. As long as you are not going to sleep in it, cook in it or raise the roof, there should not be an issue as your argument should be that it is visually almost identical to a Caravelle. And I assume they would allow that ?

You don’t want to allow this to get contentious as that would be very expensive. Are you able to identify who complained, and perhaps offer them a sweetener in the way of some consideration, to see things your way.

I bought a freehold house in Abergavenny just over a year ago, there was a covenant prohibiting Caravans, Boats & Motorhomes being kept at the property. Knowing how difficult people can be about property, prior to committing I put the California/Caravelle scenario to the developer and obtained written consent to keep my California SE at the property. Just a couple of weeks ago my neighbour knocked on my front door to complain...and quickly backed down when I reminded him that I had written consent.

 

[AlanC]

The matter was escalated by the right to manage company to The Freeholder who has threatened forfeiture of my lease/property if I don't remove my Cali, she is a private freeholder in London and she states:-

"The lease is in my opinion clear and without ambiguity, therefore please refer to the right to manage Directors".

That is passing the buck.

We live in a leasehold flat in a largish estate and similarly have a parking space under our block. In our case I do park our Cali in our space, swapping it with our car as and when convenient to us with no complaint.

However, there has been a big issue recently about owners storing stuff in their parking space, making the undercroft look untidy, still to be resolved, so I sympathise with your problem

The management company directors (we own and run our own management company for the estate) decided to issue a edict insisting all tenants comply with the relevant lease clause. They did this only because a couple of owners complained.

To my mind this then leads naturally onto complying with all of the lease terms.
Once this route is followed, then the management company on behalf of the freehold company, will have to follow through and police all of the other clauses which they tacitly allow.

If you consider retaliating like this at the next AGM then all hell would break out as this would affect a lot more leaseholders.

Is the parking space demised with your flat? If so, then if anything is removed from within the white lines, that constitutes theft and prosecution could/should follow.

I my experience, for every solicitor that states one thing, there is another that states the opposite. So a conversation with a lawyer would be a good idea to start with.

Alan

 

[Digger]

Does the leasehold also restrict commercial vehicles and vans? Is the fact that it is a gated property make the issue of vans more of a problem? The questions and responses could go on forever and again I think the only way to get a resolution is to use proper legal advice. The longer it goes on could then involve more of the residents and that could be very negative for your outcome.

 

[Tomcali]

Thank you to everybody who has contributed to this debate.
I have found all the comments to be supportive and constructive, made by reasonable minded (Cali) people.

Our decision:
We are not prepared to go down the legal route.

The reasoning behind our decision:
A Judge's decision is in the lap of the Gods - it is uncertain.

If we win the case, yes our Cali will be legally in our demised parking space but that ain't gonna make everybody happy.
We are 60ish and have 15 good summers left at best - God Willing
We are not prepared to spend 8 of those years wrestling with others.

If we lose the case our Cali will be off the estate and we will be scoffed at for wasting Directors time and money.
Nobody wins a Nuclear War.

We will have to wait and see what the future holds in terms of relationships and cordial ambience.
Thank you again - damage limitation is the optimum way forward.

A 'Time-Out' drive to Portugal and use our beloved Cali as a bloody lovely caravan.

We may see some of you in Europe on our travels, if the authorities let us in.
What ever happened to Free Spirits?

Good luck for the forthcoming season.
Tomcali

 

[motacyclist]

We obtained written acceptance from the developer for our California before agreeing to buy our property two years ago.

Despite this, we wouldn’t be very happy if the neighbours started complaining, there’s nothing worse than disputes with neighbours. In fact, if we ever move again it will be somewhere with no neighbours!

 

[Amarillo]

A very sad end to the story.

Enjoy your time in Portugal.


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[Velma's Dad]

Tomcali I salute your wisdom. In any case, there's no pleasure to be had from a parked-up campervan, whether on your drive or somewhere else. Hope you have magnificent trips and hols.

 

[Stoneybroke]

The question here is what does the wording of the lease actually say?
If the lease states caravan, then it is surely is for the freeholder to prove that the wording includes a Cali.
If the lease doesn't define a caravan, then any court would use the normal interpretation, which I don't think would include a motor vehicle.
Even if they look to the motor caravan definition, this is a distinct category and would normally be listed separately on a lease (I have seen that).
I wish you all the best. The whole system of leasehold is awful.

 

[Amarillo]

The question here is what does the wording of the lease actually say?
If the lease states caravan, then it is surely is for the freeholder to prove that the wording includes a Cali.
If the lease doesn't define a caravan, then any court would use the normal interpretation, which I don't think would include a motor vehicle.
Even if they look to the motor caravan definition, this is a distinct category and would normally be listed separately on a lease (I have seen that).
I wish you all the best. The whole system of leasehold is awful.

Presumably the intent of the freeholder is to prevent the estate being littered with boats and caravans which are rarely used. If that is the case, it would be hard to argue that motor caravans are excluded from the term caravan.

My guess is that a neighbour has sought consent to park a caravan or motor caravan on the estate. The request has been rejected and they’ve gone back and said, but so and so across the road have a California Ocean which is a motor caravan.

A very sad story.


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