Renewable energy

[Californication69]

Like the Nordic country’s. @Sunstoner
Drill a hole down 200m, send water down one pipe, get steam back in the return pipe.
Free ish power.
Electric from generators.
Hot water for everything that’s needing hot water and also heat exchanger to heat fresh water to drink.

 

[Robadoba]

There is only one solution based on the science and what we are capable of doing now - Consume Less.
All we are doing is looking for ways to carry on our present level of consumption, of things, of energy and resources and the problem each way we go we encounter or will encounter significant environmental problems.
Maybe Nuclear Fusion?

The Law of Unintended Consequences is alive and well.

"Consume Less"
Hit the nail well and truly on the head my friend - never a truer word said.

 

[willwander]

There is only one solution based on the science and what we are capable of doing now - Consume Less.
All we are doing is looking for ways to carry on our present level of consumption, of things, of energy and resources and the problem each way we go we encounter or will encounter significant environmental problems.
Maybe Nuclear Fusion?

The Law of Unintended Consequences is alive and well.

I agree we need to consume less energy, there is no reason why we can't do this in parallel with developing renewable energy.

Nuclear fusion...
We already have a zero cost, zero maintenance, fully working fusion reactor capable of supplying all our energy needs for free...it's called the sun.

 

[WelshGas]

Like the Nordic country’s. @Sunstoner
Drill a hole down 200m, send water down one pipe, get steam back in the return pipe.
Free ish power.
Electric from generators.
Hot water for everything that’s needing hot water and also heat exchanger to heat fresh water to drink.

But that's a very niche solution, possible because of the geology and small population. They cannot utilise this capability without other countries making all the hardware for them to utilise this capability. They don't produce the drill equipment, pumps, generators or electric vehicles.
As far as I am aware there is No method of producing electricity, as a base energy, and utilising it, that has No impact on the climate or environment globally.

 

[Velma's Dad]

So

What is the answer here? I dont expect thee answer but you know what I mean, the alternative for power? many more fields of solar? every house with panels and a cart shed for the horses?

For primary energy, the answer is largely quite simple and it's a combination of wind and solar. While objectors have banged on for years that it will never happen (either with vested interests in the fossil fuel status quo, or just reactionary by temperament) it has nevertheless quietly been growing in scale. In UK and many other countries wind no longer needs a subsidy.

Solar PV costs have plummeted in the past decade and still falling. Yes we'll have to get used to fields covered in panels in the near term, although concentrated solar (CSP) is starting to show promise I think.

In five years' time more than half the UK's electricity generation will come from renewables and they are already bigger than gas I think.

The installed base of coal generation in some parts of the world, notably China, remains an obstacle to global net zero in generation, however CCS may become a factor (it can remove 80-90% of emissions from a coal-fired power plant) if there is political intent on China's part. They certainly don't lack the technical ability to do it and already have had large-scale pilots operating for several years.

Transportation is a different matter, debated (sometimes to exhaustion) on other VWCOC forums.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

...waahaha...
The Telegraph - objective hahaha...
love it!

The point is that the devastating pollution being caused in a growing number of locations around the globe from the extraction of Rare Earths is indisputable.

Will now let you get back to your highly ‘objective’ media feeds - maybe The Guardian or the BBC.

Whahaha love it!

 

[briwy]

The pay back on energy input to produce a wind farm is 3 to 6 months. 1 to 3 years for solar. Both have an expected lifespan of 25 years.

Wave power had investment until they realised it didn’t work, energy is too dispersed , tidal is promising but is currently more expensive than wind. current tidal schemes have high environmental impact.

Hmm. Not too sure about that. Are you talking of land based or offshore because there is a big difference?

 

[Velma's Dad]

The point is that the devastating pollution being caused in a growing number of locations around the globe from the extraction of Rare Earths is indisputable.

Will now let you get back to your highly ‘objective’ media feeds - maybe The Guardian or the BBC.

Whahaha love it!

I haven't read the Sunday Telegraph piece you cited because it's paywalled. However I must admit the reactionary slant of much of the Telegraph's content (not admittedly that I've read much recently, as I say) makes me inclined to give it no more objectivity than the Guardian. So that's my centrist biases on the table...

On the general point, yes it's clear there is serious environmental pollution already being caused in some places by extraction of REE (and let's not forget that REE mining has been growing since the early 1990s due mainly to the growing in demand for consumer electronics - which we're all happily using to read this thread - as well as medical equipment, only lately added to by demands for wind turbine magnets).

I don't know whether the Telegraph article attempts to balance that against the massive damage caused by oil and coal extraction in many parts of the world but if not then it's a very one sided analysis. Just to take one example, the devastation of large parts of the Delta region in Nigeria by oil extraction at huge scale and with profound effects on people's lives over decades.

The answer, surely, is for governments to be held primarily responsible for protecting their people from harm from any extractive industries permitted to operate in their countries and for multinational businesses (whether oil and gas or rare earth mining operators) to be held to account by us, as best we're able including through our elected representatives.

Incidentally, did the Telegraph article note that there is huge potential for recycling of REE from the first generation of wind turbine magnets, as they reach the end of their operating lives? That is forecast to reduce substantially the need for primary extraction over time even though recycling methods are I believe still only at an early stage of R&D.

 

[willwander]

Hmm. Not too sure about that. Are you talking of land based or offshore because there is a big difference?

Fair point. I expect the payback is variable, depending on location and conditions.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

I’ve re-read the article (Telegraph Magazine - Saturday) and to be perfectly honest i don’t see any political bias in it. It’s certainly not ‘dissing’ renewables in favour of oil, so no obvious vested interests being promoted.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Hmm. Not too sure about that. Are you talking of land based or offshore because there is a big difference?

I'm not sure the difference is all that great. Offshore turbines do require more steel to make, although have a higher generation output on average. There are also some differences in energy consumption for maintenance ops. Still I haven't spotted a figure greater than 18 months, and most analyses say less than that even for offshore.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

I’ve re-read the article (Telegraph Magazine - Saturday) and to be perfectly honest i don’t see any political bias in it. It’s certainly not ‘dissing’ renewables in favour of oil, so no obvious vested interests being promoted.

View attachment 72190

View attachment 72191

For anybody interested, the article was effectively a summary/review of the book ‘The rare metals war’ by Guillaume Pitron.

 

[Velma's Dad]

I’ve re-read the article (Telegraph Magazine - Saturday) and to be perfectly honest i don’t see any political bias in it. It’s certainly not ‘dissing’ renewables in favour of oil, so no obvious vested interests being promoted.

View attachment 72190

View attachment 72191

It's all just journalism at the end of the day but I always have a bit of an eye-roll when I see the "Takes XXX megatonnes of rock to produce XXX micrograms of unobtainium" etc.

You have to ask the "is that actually a big number?" question (as Tim Harford on More or Less says) ,and against meaningful comparators. For conventional incandescent lightbulbs, how many tonnes of rock had to be mined to extract one kg (or, more usefully, one light bulb's worth) of tungsten, for example? And what harm might/is done by that mining?

 

[AndyP12345]

This whole situation is very complex and very polarised. The current focus on renewables and EV as the solution to the problem is far too simplistic.

-rare earth mining causes environmental issues and exploits those that are mining it
-the cabling necessary to upgrade the grid requires metals for the conductors and non conducting materials for the insulation
-the components that enable the internet and the devices we use to post our comments here cause environmental damage. The energy used to power the internet and the consequential emissions will soon exceed the emissions generated by air travel
- over population and population growth rates contribute to consumption, deforestation etc etc

Big political statements are easy to make as the politicians change every 4 years or so....

China has played the long game and now control 85% plus of the world Rare Earths and minerals required for device manufacture. They also control majority of the device manufacture. Also building and polluting at an incredible rate

norway held up as a leading light in renewables and in the introduction of EV remains the 13 largest oil producer and in its own budgets demostrates that it will need to continue exploitation of oil for another 25 years plus

we all need to do our part... all my devices are more than 7 years old and am about to upgrade wifes phone as its hit 10 years old and the speaker has stopped working

It’s amazing this thread is here.. when we are driving polluting diesel vehicles. That said I am not giving up my camper

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

It's all just journalism at the end of the day but I always have a bit of an eye-roll when I see the "Takes XXX megatonnes of rock to produce XXX micrograms of unobtainium" etc.

You have to ask the "is that actually a big number?" question (as Tim Harford on More or Less says) ,and against meaningful comparators. For conventional incandescent lightbulbs, how many tonnes of rock had to be mined to extract one kg (or, more usefully, one light bulb's worth) of tungsten, for example? And what harm might/is done by that mining?

Totally agree but nevertheless it’s important to be aware that ‘green’ has a dirty side.

 

[66tim99]

The point is that the devastating pollution being caused in a growing number of locations around the globe from the extraction of Rare Earths is indisputable.

Will now let you get back to your highly ‘objective’ media feeds - maybe The Guardian or the BBC.

Whahaha love it!

Helpful site assessing media bias, and Fake Noos.
BBC (High factual reporting, slightly left of centre) more objective than the Telegraph ('mixed' factual reporting, Right wing)and the Guardian ('mixed' factual, Centre-left). All more objective than the Daily Mail (Low factual reporting, further right than the Telegraph, bordering on Extreme)
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/daily-telegraph/

 

[66tim99]

That is quite possible, but a question remains: where is the hydrogen to come from? Most will say via hydrolysis of water, ok where is the electricity to come from? Nuclear - ok that works. Wind - ummmm? How many thousands of wind turbines would be needed? Solar - ummmm? How many thousands of acres of land would need to be covered? Cover all roofs with panels - would that work? - it might. Other technology? Splitting of water using sunlight with a catalyst - TiO2?

Suspect Nuclear baseload with offshore wind and solar will make up the largest proportion. Reducing carbon emissions, partly through reduction in consumption of course, has to be the goal now. When there's an alternative fuel Cali, I'm first in the queue.

 

[Sunstoner]

Like the Nordic country’s. @Sunstoner
Drill a hole down 200m, send water down one pipe, get steam back in the return pipe.
Free ish power.
Electric from generators.
Hot water for everything that’s needing hot water and also heat exchanger to heat fresh water to drink.

Although not for power but for heating, we're looking at doing similar by installing a ground source heat pump. Local council told us to sod off re solar panels, which isnt at all helpful.

Does feel like all of these solutions need some serious consideration moving forward.

 

[66tim99]

Although not for power but for heating, we're looking at doing similar by installing a ground source heat pump. Local council told us to sod off re solar panels, which isnt at all helpful.

Does feel like all of these solutions need some serious consideration moving forward.

Planning permission refused as you're in a conservation area, or its a listed building? Often they are not as precious about rear roof slopes in CAs (not helpful if that slope is north facing!) but listed buildings are tricky. I had success in City of Westminster getting planning using solar roof tiles rather than panels, though cost and efficiency are downsides...
https://www.solarguide.co.uk/solar-roof-tile-manufacturers#/

 

[Sunstoner]

Planning permission refused as you're in a conservation area, or its a listed building? Often they are not as precious about rear roof slopes in CAs (not helpful if that slope is north facing!) but listed buildings are tricky. I had success in City of Westminster getting planning using solar roof tiles rather than panels, though cost and efficiency are downsides...
https://www.solarguide.co.uk/solar-roof-tile-manufacturers#/

Yes its 2(3) fold. The rear of our property faces a Grade2 listed property and own property is marked as being an English Heritage asset and we're in a conservation area, so we've no chance. Apparently we can place them in the garden but we're not quite over moon about that one just yet.