Pop-up roof-well paint peeling

[Theodora]

Our Beach was new in March 2019. At the weekend I noticed clear-thin tape was poking through the gap between the front of the pop-up roof and the roof itself on both from corners. When I lifted the roof I could then see flaking/peeling top-coat paint in these areas. But it's only the top-coat so far, i.e. what seems to be the lighter/whiter colour underneath seems to be undercoat (I assume?) and this is now exposed (please see photos). But it's not back to the raw metal yet (so no rusting). I'm just about to phone my local VW van centre, but first, some questions please:

- Has anyone experienced this exact same problem (and in the same locations) ...and especially on recent California's?
- I know there are lots of threads on roof corrosion issues, but these seem to go back a while and I would've thought VW would have rectified this on more recent models?
- It had it's first interim service in March this year. Do you think they should of opened the roof and done a full bodywork inspection, especially in light of historically known paint corrosion issues? (or are services only 'mechanical').
- It's parked on our drive which slopes forward. Could this exacerbate the problem? (despite me thinking asking people to only park/store on a perfectly level surface would be unreasonable and unrealistic).
- Also: Do you know if this base roof material in this specific area is steel or aluminium?

Many thanks

 

[flying banana]

That tape gets rubbed loose by the roof when driving. Check the roof is down tight and that all clips and fastenings are present on the scissors. I had a black clip snap on the scissors which I assume allowed the roof to rub that tape when driving. I replaced the tape several times before I spotted the broken clip. It now seems to stay in place. As for the paint I'm not sure. You would need VW to look at it. The tape is easy to replace yourself. Helicopter tape

 

[flying banana]

Missing clip was here

 

[Theodora]

Many thanks. I've sent photos to VW Martins in Basingstoke to see what they say.

 

[flying banana]

Are you sure its not polish powder residue?

 

[Theodora]

Yes, it's definitely paint that's peeling off - but thanks anyway (see photo). Have contacted VW Martins but they can't do as there are only a few specialist (and VW approved) places that can do this, so they've passed me onto HL Motors in Twickenham. But they need approval from VW warranty dept before they can get involved. They tell me that they have done over 200 roof-top repairs like this over many years, including some recently with my 19 reg plate. So this is obviously not a problem that's gone away (and I've been told mine won't get booked-in for some time - assuming the repairs are authorised). They say it's to do with the rubber seal rubbing. I suppose the only good news is that the material is aluminium after all (and not steel as I thought) - so at least it won't go rusty while waiting! I also hope I get a courtesy car out of VW - as it will take several weeks, apparently.

 

[Perfectos]

Yes, it's definitely paint that's peeling off - but thanks anyway (see photo). Have contacted VW Martins but they can't do as there are only a few specialist (and VW approved) places that can do this, so they've passed me onto HL Motors in Twickenham. But they need approval from VW warranty dept before they can get involved. They tell me that they have done over 200 roof-top repairs like this over many years, including some recently with my 19 reg plate. So this is obviously not a problem that's gone away (and I've been told mine won't get booked-in for some time - assuming the repairs are authorised). They say it's to do with the rubber seal rubbing. I suppose the only good news is that the material is aluminium after all (and not steel as I thought) - so at least it won't go rusty while waiting! I also hope I get a courtesy car out of VW - as it will take several weeks, apparently.

View attachment 79425

Hi Theo,

do you have an update on your issues?

 

[Theodora]

Hi Theo,

do you have an update on your issues?

Hello Perfectos - good of you to ask!
The saga continues I'm afraid. VW Martins got the warranty approval and it did eventually go to H&L Motors to have the paint repair. But when it came back I wasn't happy with the quality of finis which was 'orange-peel' texture in some places. You could also see where the masking-tape had been. Apparently it wasn't polished-down sufficiently to their normal standard and their head of QC was in for an ear-bashing. As we're campervaning most of September they're going to collect it when we're back and do it again. The picking-up of the van and courtesy car situation (for repair duration) was a fiasco and I didn't get one in the end (I started a separate thread for that one!). I've now discovered there's no actual contractual obligation for VW to give a courtesy car for a warranty repair - it's just down to the dealership's discretion. Martins either weren't willing or didn't have one to offer (I never got to the bottom of that) so they utilised what's known as the VW 'Mobex' System (which I had to tell them about) which is where they cunningly use the VW breakdown facility to pick-up and drop-back the van (on the back of an AA truck!) and then theoretically call you on the day to offer you a hire car via Eurocar or whoever. But no one called me. But in the end I wasn't willing to accept the £1,000 excess if I had a fault prang (e.g. someone denting a door in Tesco's carpark and driving off). Martins eventually said they would reimburse me for the extra I had to pay Eurocar to bring down the excess - but they would have to make a claim to VW HQ (once I'd sent in receipt) and quite honestly it was all too much faff (and probably having to wait months before getting reimbursed). But if I hadn't educated them on what the Mobex system was it seemed I was going to have to get the van to H&L myself and then find my own way back (and then collect it myself when ready).
My overall experience with the VW warranty process has been negative. Martins made it clear to me how there's nothing it for them - especially when they didn't get any profit from selling me the van in the first place. It seems to me that when dealerships (who are merely franchisee's) want something from you (i.e. the vehicle sale, extended service plan, etc) then they want to benefit from the VW brand and give the impression they are a VW branch with VW employees. But when you want something like a warranty repair then you're told in no uncertain terms that they're not technically really VW, but they reluctantly admit that one of their franchise obligations is having have to make a warranty application on your behalf, but that if you have any complaints, want a courtesy car, etc then please deal direct with the VW brand because there's nothing in it for them as they don't get reimbursed for their admin time/trouble or for funding a courtesy car etc. But when you do complain to VW HQ they tell you that it's all down to the dealership top sort out!
But I suppose this is the same with whatever brand you buy from nowadays. I'll try to remember to update once I get the van back again at the end of September.

 

[Perfectos]

Thank you for the update.

Not a Great situation in the first place, let alone the fiasco that is VW vs VW dealer.
I hope you get the remedial works done to your satisfaction and as it should be.

 

[Theodora]

UPDATE:
5 months on and 3 attempts at painting/polishing and not much further on I'm afraid. The top-edge seems to be vulnerable to friction/pressure from the black rubber seal on the front of the pop-up roof. As though the vibration when driving it loosens-up the top-coat. Everyone agrees no point in continuing to put 'lipstick on a pig' until we can get some advice/direction from VW technician at HQ (so that's what the bodyshop is trying to do). I've also contacted VW customer services again and waiting to hear.

But I can't believe I'm the only one with this issue (or I'm very unlucky). But because it's on the top edge and really only visible when the pop-up roof is open (and you happen to climb-up there to have a look) a lot of you out there might know realise you've got the same problem. And, of course, you'll go many months before even opening it.

Could I therefore suggest that anyone concerned inspects the California to see if you can see a similar problem? You may just not realise it at the moment.

Latest photos attached.

 

[Lambeth Cali]

For what it’s worth my 2008 T5 has the same paint worn away on the front cone or whatever we call it.
It’s been like that for years and years. It doesn’t seem to actually rust or corrode so I’ve just left it. 13 years and nothing I would call a serious problem. No leaks.

It’s not great but there’s one guaranteed way to make it worse and that’s to let a VW “technician” touch it.

The tape fix seems to have worked for some but has made a right mess for others. It’s a bit like that old joke -
“Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this”
“Well don’t do it then”.
Can I suggest you leave it alone….

 

[Theodora]

Thanks - I agree it won't corrode because the base it's base aluminium in that location. Plus it only ever rubbed-off the top coats (by the time I saw it anyway). On the other hand it's a another bargaining issue when/if I want to re-sell if it's just left. For me, if I put a dent or scratch in I can live with it. But when paid circa £55K only 2 years ago and it feels like its deteriorating already, it annoys me.

Take point re VW "technician" though. Might seek an independent expert if get gut-feeling VW person doesn't look up to it.

I think it must be too much pressure, tightness, friction and wondered if there was any geometric dimensional adjustments to the pop-up roof itself which could relive it (but obviously still retain the gasket sealing function). But that would imply very fine-tuning (which I don't think is possible anyway).

 

[Perfectos]

I think it must be too much pressure, tightness, friction and wondered if there was any geometric dimensional adjustments to the pop-up roof itself which could relive it (but obviously still retain the gasket sealing function). But that would imply very fine-tuning (which I don't think is possible anyway).

You could try moving the roof buckles up slightly (very small movement)
as far as I understand the front buckles control the pressure the roof is held in position.
the front buckles, both sides, have two fixings which are visible when the buckle is open, loosening them allows the buckle to be moved up or down as required.
you could try experimenting with small adjustments (use masking tape to mark the bottom of the buckle body in it’s current position)
if moving the buckle upwards) that way you have a point of reference of you need to put it back to the original position

 

[Theodora]

Thanks Perfectos. I've had a look and there might be some micro-adjustment available (but I can't see a slotted-hole though - maybe that's behind?). Either way, I'd be worried about giving VW an excuse I've invalidated the warranty by trying to sort this myself. So I'll just point this out to them and let them decide if they want to have a go themselves. If I play with this they'll see the marks in the screw slot/stars. If it was the solution then it would be a very fine balance between reducing the friction but retaining a good water-tight seal. Can't believe during production assembly that someone goes to the trouble of setting this just right - than testing. Surely it's got to be that the paint finish has got to be be robust (and 'forgiving' enough) to deal with this pressure?

 

[Lambeth Cali]

I take your point about selling or trading in. Hopefully any buyer would be aware of the roof paint issue and aware that it won’t rust. My paint is gold so it would be less noticeable than blue.
If you’re not planning on selling for a long time I would think about leaving it be.
This might seem outrageous thing to say, but when you look at the rubber seals used by everyone else I kind of think the California one is pretty good. I can see others would think I’m mad but I think the design and production is typically German. I can imagine an engineer saying
‘This is very tight and waterproof’
and his colleague replying ‘yah, maybe too tight, it might rub the paint?’
‘maybe but it won’t corrode, we have thought of that. It’s all aluminium or zinc coated steel’.
I mean my van looks amazing after 13 years, with no rust. At 25yrs I suspect it’ll be the same.

 

[Theodora]

Thanks Lambeth Cali. The latest is that VW Customer Services are now investigating in parallel with the bodyshop who are liaising with VW themselves re seeing if someone from VW technical can come over to look at it (because they also wondered about something not being right during production). So let's see. But I agree there's no hurry as it won't rust. If it had taken 13 years to rub away I wouldn't be so concerned. But when only 2 years old (and still warranty covered) then I want it fixed - eventually. I suspect there are many more recent owners with this problem. But you're not going to be aware of it unless you open-up the roof, climb-up and have a look. And, of course, we rarely have reason to do that (because we close it from the inside manually - or some will have electric closing). Plus, you don't really see the problem when it's closed. I also wonder if we're more tolerant because it's just a viewed as a glorified 'van'? You can buy a new Porsche for the same price as a new Beach. But I wonder if the sports-car owner would be so forgiving with a similar problem after just 2 years?

 

[andyinluton]

UPDATE:

But I can't believe I'm the only one with this issue (or I'm very unlucky). But because it's on the top edge and really only visible when the pop-up roof is open (and you happen to climb-up there to have a look) a lot of you out there might know realise you've got the same problem. And, of course, you'll go many months before even opening it.

Am I right in thinking that its the colour coat that is flaking? if so that is normally a soft layer of paint but should have a decent coat of hard clear lacquer over it. Have they just forgotten the clear coat of lacquer?

 

[Theodora]

Thanks andyinluton. I'm going to ask them this tomorrow - good question!

 

[Perfectos]

Am I right in thinking that its the colour coat that is flaking? if so that is normally a soft layer of paint but should have a decent coat of hard clear lacquer over it. Have they just forgotten the clear coat of lacquer?

Good call Andy
Measuring the paint thickness would answer that question
if the clear coat is missing the paint thickness would be severely thinner than if it had clear coat.
But surely a body shop would consider that, particularly as the CC provide all the protection?
Still got to be worth a comment to VW and ask for the thickness to be checked or find a friendly body shop whom will measure it (good detail co. will be able to measure paint thickness)

 

[andyinluton]

Actually thinking about it further, when you scratch with your thumbnail, what is under the paint? are you down to the white primer? am wondering if in fact what you are picking up is colour coat overspray that is on top of the clear coat.

Forget that - I've just scrolled back up to the top post.

 

[Theodora]

Thanks guys. I've just emailed the bodyshop your thoughts/questions and will let them answer first. When I rubbed with my thumb it did feel soft. But I decided not to keep rubbing for fear that I might be accused of damaging it. So I got as far as little flakes coming off and then just left it alone for now. I think ultimately, no matter what the bodyshop have done (or not done) we need to go back to why the paint was rubbing-way 6 months ago (or sooner, because I only 'discovered' it then). What was the original cause? e.g. no point in continuing to "put lipstick on a pig" - even if that's applied correctly. Because, if there's an underlying reason that's caused it, it will just keep repeating.

 

[Ozzy Pete]

Just wondering, has the paint been allowed to cure properly? If they haven’t used a heater to harden it that could be the problem. The paint needs minimum 60 degrees for it to cure and will stay soft until it does. In the olden days when I served my apprenticeship the paints were cellulose based and would dry in minutes without heat.

 

[orbital]

Our Beach was new in March 2019. At the weekend I noticed clear-thin tape was poking through the gap between the front of the pop-up roof and the roof itself on both from corners. When I lifted the roof I could then see flaking/peeling top-coat paint in these areas. But it's only the top-coat so far, i.e. what seems to be the lighter/whiter colour underneath seems to be undercoat (I assume?) and this is now exposed (please see photos). But it's not back to the raw metal yet (so no rusting). I'm just about to phone my local VW van centre, but first, some questions please:

- Has anyone experienced this exact same problem (and in the same locations) ...and especially on recent California's?
- I know there are lots of threads on roof corrosion issues, but these seem to go back a while and I would've thought VW would have rectified this on more recent models?
- It had it's first interim service in March this year. Do you think they should of opened the roof and done a full bodywork inspection, especially in light of historically known paint corrosion issues? (or are services only 'mechanical').
- It's parked on our drive which slopes forward. Could this exacerbate the problem? (despite me thinking asking people to only park/store on a perfectly level surface would be unreasonable and unrealistic).
- Also: Do you know if this base roof material in this specific area is steel or aluminium?

Many thanks

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View attachment 79406

Yes, I have the same problem on my 2019 T6 Ocean. VW Heritage Bristol failed to fix it twice. I’ve just had the third fix. They told me to leave the roof down for a few days to ensure that the tape is kept pressured by the roof. We’ll see if it’s third time lucky.if it does fail, I’m at a loss what to do.

 

[Theodora]

Just wondering, has the paint been allowed to cure properly? If they haven’t used a heater to harden it that could be the problem. The paint needs minimum 60 degrees for it to cure and will stay soft until it does. In the olden days when I served my apprenticeship the paints were cellulose based and would dry in minutes without heat.

Thanks Ozzy Pete - I'll ask that question too

 

[Theodora]

Yes, I have the same problem on my 2019 T6 Ocean. VW Heritage Bristol failed to fix it twice. I’ve just had the third fix. They told me to leave the roof down for a few days to ensure that the tape is kept pressured by the roof. We’ll see if it’s third time lucky.if it does fail, I’m at a loss what to do.

Hi Orbital. Was your problem also the paint pealing/rubbing off (as can be seen in my photos at top of this thread) - or just the tapes coming lose or getting distorted (again - like pictures above)?