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Cup of tea without the Carbon monoxide please

Discussion in 'VW California Beach Chat' started by MarkVw2017, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. WelshGas
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    WelshGas Retired after 42 yrs and enjoying Life. Top Poster VIP Member Lifetime VIP Member

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    You forgot Not 7 and possibly Nos 8.

    After a few brews - worry about state of Leisure Battery. Visit Dealer to get Leisure Battery checked out.

    Save money on gas cylinders and put towards premature replacement of Leisure Battery.:(
     
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  2. LemonDrop
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    LemonDrop Lifetime VIP Member

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  3. Grumposaur68
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    Grumposaur68 Lifetime VIP Member

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    Just open a window on the lee side :)
     
  4. WelshGas
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    WelshGas Retired after 42 yrs and enjoying Life. Top Poster VIP Member Lifetime VIP Member

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    He may not have one? I think it is a pay option in the sliding door on a T6 Beach and so would have to turn the vehicle round.
     
  5. Borris
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    Borris Top Poster VIP Member

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    There's always the two in the front!
     
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  6. Steve.S
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    Steve.S VIP Member

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    All the previous advice re ventilation and carbon monoxide (CO) alarms are absolutely the right things to do. Could be viewed as a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but why take the chance. CO is slightly lighter than air, colourless and odourless and is the result of incomplete combustion which shouldn’t be an issue with your Jetboil. ( yellow flames bad, blue flames better). Headache, nausea and dizziness can be initial symptoms for mild exposure (not to be confused with downing several glasses of wine!). Significant exposure could lead ultimately to death so an alarm is a no-brainer for me with my Ocean. Even in the heaviest rain there will probably be a leeward side to your Beach so windows somewhere can be opened. Alternatively switch on the heating/ventilation for a few minutes to change the air within the compartment.
     
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  7. kave
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    kave VIP Member

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    7 buy a new leisure battery :)
     
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  8. ArunAlec
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    ArunAlec VIP Member

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    If using the heating/ventilation, I’m pretty sure that the auxiliary heater does not draw air from outside, it’s just recycling, so won’t change the air.
     
  9. Skylark2.0
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    Skylark2.0 The adventure with Starlight Expess begins VIP Member

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    Was this measurement made with the windows cracked open or the roof up?
     
  10. DG1
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    DG1 VIP Member

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    I just got the second last one of these from the shop last week. From the photos I was expecting it to be made of a rigid plastic with a built in curve, but it is actually a very flexible flat sheet that takes up the curve according to where you attached the suckers to the window surround. It is a very tight fit to slide the top into the guttering channel, but hopefully it will loosen up with time. It does solve the problem of leaving the sliding window open for ventilation at night without the worry of rain getting in. It is perhaps a bit expensive for what it is, but then that seems to apply to all Brandrup products.
     
  11. motacyclist
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    motacyclist Colin Top Poster Lifetime VIP Member

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    No, I windows closed and roof down, never thought the oxygen would deplete that fast; since then we always make sure fresh air can get in.
     
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  12. kp64zl
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    kp64zl VIP Member

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    Hi @motacyclist --quick question, can you remember how fast did the oxygen go down? and to what level?

    We know a lot about safety of low oxygen (hypoxia) from mountain and aviation studies, for example the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere is as follows:

    1) at sea level is about 150mmHg (say 100%),
    2) cabin pressure in a standard commercial airliner is about 127mmHg (or equivalent to about 84% of sea level) (we would probably agree that's safe),
    3) some of the higher ski resorts about 113mmHg (or about 75% sea level) (also we would probably agree this is safe for most people).
    4) it's only at about the altitude of the high ski resorts that people start getting mountain sickness due to the low oxygen levels (& that's after about 6-8 hours exposure) and you would need to go a lot higher to start having serious reactions.

    If would be interesting to know how low the oxygen went in the van.

    My gut feeling is that there are other risks (as described in this thread) that are greater potential hazards than low oxygen, but that's just a guess based on my understanding of hypoxia physiology rather than van o2 measurements!
     
  13. MattBW
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    MattBW Here to help Moderator Top Poster Lifetime VIP Member

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    I once tested a small gas heater in a T25 van, with a CO alarm to see how long it took. Suffice to say it took less than 30 minutes to trigger the CO alarm. I dont know at what level the CO alarm triggers or where that is on the safety timeline but it convinced me not to use gas heaters thats for sure.
     
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  14. Bellcrew
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    Bellcrew VIP Member

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    As long as the CO2 scrubbers fit in the round containers we should all be OK.
     
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  15. WelshGas
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    WelshGas Retired after 42 yrs and enjoying Life. Top Poster VIP Member Lifetime VIP Member

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    People worry about Carbon Monoxide in a California but that is really only a problem if a combustion source is in use that is undergoing " incomplete combustion ", yellow rather than blue flames.
    When sleeping you are unlikely to have such a combustion source going within the vehicle. If you are then you are Stupid and Darwins theory is about to be invoked.
    However, when sleeping, 1 or more persons, then there can be serious depletion of Oxygen levels and a consequential increase in Carbon Dioxide. This increase in Carbon Dioxide can mitigate the drop in Oxygen to a degree by making it easier to absorb sufficient Oxygen, upto a point.
    If you ever wake up feeling as if you have a head full of cotton wool or an element of nasal congestion then you probably have inadequate ventilation within the vehicle.
    I mean, how many people would normally sleep in your single Box room at home?
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019 at 8:57 AM
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  16. motacyclist
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    motacyclist Colin Top Poster Lifetime VIP Member

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    I'm not familiar with expressing oxygen levels as mmHg, our monitor gave readings in percentages. I should imaging the percentage would be the same irrespective of altitude, although the air would be less dense higher up, and therefore contain less O2 per lungful. It was a long time ago, but if my memory serves me correctly the O2 level dropped to about 18.5% (21.5% is normal) before the kettle boiled. It wasn't low enough to trigger the alarm on the gas monitor.

    There was no indication of carbon monoxide. (The only time I've seen the CO alarm go off was when I was in a ship's double bottom under the engine room. I got out of there pretty quick!)
     
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  17. kp64zl
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    kp64zl VIP Member

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    Hi @motacyclist -- at altitude the air becomes thinner as the ambient pressure drops and it's actually the pressure of Oxygen that counts to the body, not the %, although at a given ambient pressure the two are directly related.

    Simple example is that at sea level the ambient pressure of oxygen is approximately 150mmHg, which is about 21% of air (the total pressure about 760mmHg = 100%)

    At Everest base camp, ambient pressure is approximately half (i.e. approximately 400mmHg) and although oxygen is still 21% of the mix, the body has approximately half the oxygen available to it (because it's the pressure not the % that matters).

    What this means is that we can learn from how the body reacts at altitude to infer what may be relevant in terms of oxygen depletion in a van (due to combustion).

    According to this chart (http://www.geography.hunter.cuny.edu/tbw/wc.notes/1.atmosphere/high.altitude/partial.pressure.html)

    18.5% inspired oxygen (which is approximately 88% of sea level) would approximately be equivalent to 1000metres altitude -- i.e. lower than most ski resorts -- so on its own is very unlikely to be harmful in any way at all.

    Of course in reality it's a bit more complex -- as build up of water vapour (from boiling the kettle) and extra exhaled co2 (as @WelshGas) will slightly displace some Oxygen from the mix.

    Most people start noticing ill effects of low oxygen at about 2500-3000 metres altitude and may start to get symptoms of altitude sickness after about 6-8hours exposure. Therefore I'd say it would be impossible to suffer severe acute hypoxia (lack of oxygen) toxicity from combustion within a van, in normal use.
     
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  18. motacyclist
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    motacyclist Colin Top Poster Lifetime VIP Member

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    Thanks for the detailed explanation, it’s reassuring to know we won’t be suffocated brewing up! :thumb
     
  19. Borris
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    Borris Top Poster VIP Member

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    Good grief, just crack open a window!
     
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  20. larrylamb
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    larrylamb Califandango Top Poster VIP Member

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    What about methane emissions? :mute
     
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